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Why do so few people major in computer science?

danwang.co

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#321

Post by 01572 »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #273
01572 wrote: post #216

To an audience of CS majors this will probably sound like trolling but honestly I have never used any software written by a "computer scientist" that I came to value and rely on -- software that I consciously chose to use. Whereas I have found such software on multiple ocassions written by mathematicians or persons in some other field, e.g., physics, etc. As a user of software , I do not believe that a computer scien…

If you've even used an operating system or the internet there are a hundred algorithms/datastructures/CS concepts at play. One example is consistent hashing used by CDNs such as Akamai, so indirectly almost any website you visit. All of the routing/control flow/congestion control algorithms that make internet work. Algorithms to wrap text on a website to a certain width. Algorithms to schedule processes on your OS, v…

Difference between 1. computer scientists who are by nature of their CS training able to write high quality software and 2. the presence of CS subject matter in programs or the role of algorithms in today's Western societies. No one disputes #2.

Of those CS majors who write software, I see others with no CS degree, e.g., PhD in maths instead, who write better software. Conclusion: ?

Difference between earning a masters in Economics and actually needing that knowledge to do one's job at Salomon Bros. If the degree was needed for the knowledge it provided (versus window dressing for interviewers or clients) then I certainly missed that part in Liar's Poker because I recall the book arguing exactly the opposite. Back in those days I had a friend who was a Philosophy major and was extremely successful on Wall Street.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#322

Post by pmorici »

kd0amg wrote: post #293
pmorici wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realize this in the first day of practical exercises." Isn't that what makes CS easier? You get immediate feedback. You know if it will be right or wrong before you even turn it in.

You know if it will be right or wrong before you even turn it in. Most student-written test suites I've seen are not nearly this thorough.

Sure, but that is all about attention to detail. It isn't really about how smart you are rather how much effort you put in.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#323

Post by harryh »

sopooneo wrote: post #319
harryh wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hundreds to thousands of hours? I think you're overestimating a weee bit.

Maybe. But I am sure I had put in a thousand hours programing my C64 by the time I had finished 8th grade. And I doubt I'm alone.

Ack. I misread "hundreds to thousands" as "hundreds of thousands." My mistake! Hundreds to thousands is def reasonable.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#324

Post by Houshalter »

I have a theory that it's because computers are pushing coding stuff away. If you bought a personal computer in the 80s, you basically needed to learn how to program. The computer would come with a basic interpreter built in and easy to find. It would come with a thick dead tree manual on how to program it.

Windows, as far as I know, doesn't come with any programming language built in. You can do some shell stuff or js in the browser, but you can't make an application with that (easily.) And that stuff is hidden away and not encouraged, you have to do research to find out it's even there.

And mobile OSes are even more locked down. As mobile devices replace desktop computers for the vast majority of people, how are they ever supposed to get into programming?

In some sense it is easier than ever to get into programming. Programming languages are better, the internet makes learning resources much more available, there's libraries that can do whatever obscure thing you want to do. But all this is hidden away in a secret world that most users will never venture into and don't know exists.

I know this sounds like it shouldn't be a big deal, but I really believe it is. I was so intimidated by learning programming that I put it off for a long time. It seemed like it would be very complicated and difficult. When I did try to learn, I tried with C++. I also early on tried to program stuff with batch scripts and was put off by how limited it was. Eventually I tried another obscure proprietary language that I found through clicking on an ad. All of these were terrible choices for a beginner who wants to learn programming. But I didn't know enough to know they were terrible choices.

If someone had installed python on my computer and showed me some simple examples I could play with, I would have been so much better off. Eventually I stumbled across a blog post showing how to open up the developer console on a browser just by pressing F12. And some simple example stuff in js. It's like an new world just opened up to me. I know some people that had a similar experience with the computercraft mod for minecraft, of all things.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#325

Post by jstimpfle »

ams6110 wrote: post #312
ransom1538 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I learned this in our new student orientation. "If you can't recompile a linux kernel by the time you graduate, you have learned nothing. Oh, yeah, also, we wont teach you that - it's just something you will run into. " -- Professor Norman S. Matloff

Compiling a linux kernel is just following a set of instructions. You don't need to know anything about computer science to do that.

The thing with instructions is always this: The first instant something goes wrong while following them you have to give up if you don't know quite a bit about what you're doing anyway.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#326

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

jstimpfle wrote: post #325
ams6110 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compiling a linux kernel is just following a set of instructions. You don't need to know anything about computer science to do that.

The thing with instructions is always this: The first instant something goes wrong while following them you have to give up if you don't know quite a bit about what you're doing anyway.

I believe I'm not the only one who, when something goes wrong, I become more determined and think "I might learn something here" followed by searching the internet for things related to what went wrong.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#327

Post by Houshalter »

lgessler wrote: post #294
simonsarris wrote: post #11

Slight note about Dan Wang picking 2005: That was the peak of CS degrees awarded because it's 4/5 years after the height of the dot-com bubble. So the upward bump in the mid-2000's is somewhat explainable as an anomaly. I think his point 1 is underrated. CS degrees are flat because aptitude is flat. You can compare CS degrees to other degrees over time at nsf.gov: https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsb20161/#/report…

Re: the Wordsum test, I can't believe it is seriously used to assess IQ. If we assume that all participants know all of the words used, then maybe it would have some merit. But so many of the words used are either archaic, little-used, or culturally specific to North America that you could only reasonably expect a well-read and/or well-educated (and therefore wealthy) American person to know them.

It still likely correlates well with IQ. That's the whole point of IQ. A bunch of different cognitive tasks like solving puzzles and memory tests tend to correlate very well with each other. I'd be very surprised if wordsums didn't predict IQ very well.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#328

Post by Clubber »

scaryspooky wrote: post #267
kbenson wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a software engineer is often about the merging of the discipline of CS and the art of programming. I think most software engineers are strong in one and get by in varying degrees in the other. The few that are strong in both end up being the "very good" programmers we all know or have heard about. For some, that semicolon is a nagging reminder of their mistakes. For others, it's a small detail they zoom past as…

You start saying 'software engineer' and end with programmer. Clarify your terms. There is a huge difference between willing to take on liability for your faults versus slinging code.

They're all made up terms that are mostly meaningless.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#329

Post by skookumchuck »

throwaway7645 wrote: post #290
lordnacho wrote: post #107

The grief factor of learning to code is on a different scale to every other major. One missing semicolon will take your whole tower down, and you realise this in the first day of practical exercises. Even if you are of the opinion that CS is math, and coding doesn't come into it, you will hit a coding wall early on. In fact, every exercise in CS has this problem. You add a new thing (eg inheritance), and it breaks. B…

Nothing against comp Sci, but engineering is its own set of problems as you have to take a lot more advanced math classes than comp Sci, while taking all your calculus based engineering problems. Some you use techniques to convert to simple algebra problems...that end up being 2-3 pages long. All while having to learn CAD, robotics, practice circuits, design trusses, and yes, quite a few programming languages (basic,…

> It is often a cruel and harsh mistress.

If your engineering project doesn't work, there's no pretending that it does. It's the ultimate in fairness :-)

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science?

#330

Post by Spooky23 »

simonsarris wrote: post #279
Spooky23 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gives a hoot about IQ in 2017? That doesn't match what I see in the ground. I get 10-20 interns a year on my teams from big state universities and liberal arts schools with CS and stem degrees. They tend to be awesome. The best ones outperform most of the consultants you find.

More people than ever, especially on HN. https://www.gwern.net/iq Nothing you say relates to IQ stats about the median grad. If CS enrollment was up, it would push the needle I'm sure. It's not. You may as well be saying, "What do you mean most wine is bad? I drink good wine all the time."

I'm getting a random lot of 20 kids from average schools. Surely, if IQ is dropping significantly amongst the general population of CS students, I'd be seeing that?
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