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Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#271

Post by Houshalter »

smcnally wrote: post #127
still_grokking wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the massive income Facebook generates only imply that the people spending money on targeted ads believe (!) these ad are working. It is not a prove per se these ads really are worth their costs.

Buyers have access to a detailed audit trail of their ads and campaign activities. They see where ads they bought ran, the number of people who were able to see their ads, and clicks and other interactions with their ads. If "these ads are working" is defined as "these ads are accomplishing what they were intended to when purchased," peoples' spend is founded more in data than belief. Buyers have access to ~2BN peopl…

Every so often there is a post that makes it to the top of HN about how Facebook ads aren't worth the money at all. And that other ads aren't much better. Marketing departments are completely insane (look at the leaked pepsi logo manual) and exist only to continue their own existence. Many corporations don't even bother to test their ad campaigns to make sure they are effective.

The fact that people buy ads is not at all evidence that they are effective.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#272

Post by chiefalchemist »

659087 wrote: post #233
chiefalchemist wrote: post #221

So the American TV show "Person of Interest" really isn't that far off the mark. If FB is a known and readily available commercial product, imagine what DARPA, NSA, NGIA, etc. must have. God bless George Orwell.

They have this.. DARPA, NSA, GOOG, CIA, FB, etc

Touche.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#273

Post by loup-vaillant »

anigbrowl wrote: post #253
loup-vaillant wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you get it? It's not just about you. It's about all around you . When you're using Facebook, you are doing 2 things: first, you reveal the personal information of everyone around you (bit by bit, each time you reveal your personal information). Second, you strengthen the network effect that incite, sometimes even force people to cave in, use Facebook themselves, and thus reveal their private information. You do…

Who are these people around me whose information I'm revealing, pray tell? You don't know it, but using Facebook is not just a personal choice. It's a political choice. I do know that, I don't know why you would think otherwise. Whether you understand my political motives is another question, though it's clear you don't agree with them.

I assumed your self-centred argument (your freedom, your needs…) stemmed from an oversight. I assumed you didn't know, or consider, the effect you have on others by using Facebook (specifically, giving up information about them, and strengthening the network effects that sometimes force people to use Facebook even if they don't want to).

But now you're telling me you're aware of these issues… I don't want to assume, but you sure look like an egotistical bastard at this point. Or a cynic. I'm not sure which is worse.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#274

Post by loup-vaillant »

anigbrowl wrote: post #254
jacquesm wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are now officially part of the problem.

But I'm under no obligation to limit my own utility so as to maximize the pool of people who are not on FB so that your digital footprint is proportionately more shallow, Jacques. Suppose, in any case, that I persuaded my valued social circle (perhaps 10 intimates, 40 casual friends, 150 acquaintances) to move off FB to some other platform. This is unlikely as I'm not the only or most important reason reason they're…

> OK, there would be less commercial exploitation of our information, but that doesn't seem like your primary concern.

I wouldn't be so sure. Ads make money for a reason. I'm not sure I want giant corporations to play tricks with my mind so I by their products.

> we'd have 200 going to the same site every day, presumably to communicate with each other in secret.

If all communications were end-to-end encrypted, it wouldn't even look suspicious.

> how difficult would it be to social engineer oneself into a group of 200 people? Not very, and once inside one has most of the access one needs already because otherwise where is the utility?

Consider the costs and the scale. Unencrypted conversations can be archived and indexed at negligible cost. This is what enables mass surveillance. Social engineering however requires that an agent spends time on it. This is expensive, and thus only enables targeted surveillance.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#275

Post by fooker »

gruez wrote: post #131
ihm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love if someone made a Chrome extension that encrypted all the posts and messages you put on Facebook. That is, any post you made would be made as a ciphertext, the extension would swap keys with all your friends in the background, and would decrypt their posts when displaying them to you. Sure Marky Mark still sees when you post, who you send messages to, etc. but it's a much better situation than what's goi…

so like, PGP?

But for Facebook! Probably also need to throw in a Tinder and Uber to exchange keys properly.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#276

Post by Idontagree »

narag wrote: post #104
Idontagree wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which sites did you find it on and which did you delete it from?

I deleted it from the phone and my hard disk. I use to take photos with the phone, move through usb to the disk and never publish any photo anywhere. Where I found it I don't remember because it was some Google site that I hadn't signed up for. I know, they're all connected, but I didn't even know it existed, much less that personal photos could go there. My frustration comes from the fact that I had already visited…

That's quite disheartening.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#277

Post by killin_dan »

ghughes wrote: post #150
omnimus wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run design collective (group of designers and design students) we have been looking for social media projects to help. Is your project aimed to be opensource or it is comercial bussiness? We could might be able to help. Even just with small things like design analisys and testing.

Both; there will be ads and the source will be publicly available, license TBD. Please get in touch, email is in my profile.

You just killed your project. Nobody is going to use a security centric product littered with ads. Ads are exactly what people should be worried about, tracking their tabs and browsing activities.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#278

Post by GhostVII »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #273
anigbrowl wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these people around me whose information I'm revealing, pray tell? You don't know it, but using Facebook is not just a personal choice. It's a political choice. I do know that, I don't know why you would think otherwise. Whether you understand my political motives is another question, though it's clear you don't agree with them.

I assumed your self-centred argument (your freedom, your needs…) stemmed from an oversight. I assumed you didn't know, or consider, the effect you have on others by using Facebook (specifically, giving up information about them, and strengthening the network effects that sometimes force people to use Facebook even if they don't want to). But now you're telling me you're aware of these issues… I don't want to assume,…

> But now you're telling me you're aware of these issues… I don't want to assume, but you sure look like an egotistical bastard at this point. Or a cynic. I'm not sure which is worse.

That seems a bit extreme... The effect on others is pretty minimal, what is so bad about using Facebook just because you like it, despite the small side effects on others? So your saying that anyone who uses Facebook after hearing about shadow accounts is a 'egotistical bastard'?

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#279

Post by loup-vaillant »

GhostVII wrote: post #278
loup-vaillant wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assumed your self-centred argument (your freedom, your needs…) stemmed from an oversight. I assumed you didn't know, or consider, the effect you have on others by using Facebook (specifically, giving up information about them, and strengthening the network effects that sometimes force people to use Facebook even if they don't want to). But now you're telling me you're aware of these issues… I don't want to assume,…

> But now you're telling me you're aware of these issues… I don't want to assume, but you sure look like an egotistical bastard at this point. Or a cynic. I'm not sure which is worse. That seems a bit extreme... The effect on others is pretty minimal, what is so bad about using Facebook just because you like it, despite the small side effects on others? So your saying that anyone who uses Facebook after hearing about…

Depends on the expected magnitude of the effect. If small enough, you're still good. There are also ways to mitigate those effects, such as lurking only, never tag anything, use the "like" wisely…

It's not just about shadow accounts, by the way. There are more direct effects. For instance I was once forced to set up an account for logistic reasons (they used Facebook extensively, if not exclusively). Worse, when I tell them I didn't got some news (because I didn't check that account very often, and I turned off the very annoying notifications), they say "but I sent the mail" (they only used Facebook). I have since "deleted" my account, good riddance.

So, the effect on me was direct and significant. Depending on how you use Facebook, you can have a similar effect. The worst you can do is set up events and invitations on Facebook only, forcing your friends to either use Facebook, or drift apart.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#280

Post by jononor »

Kiro wrote: post #137
devopsproject wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An easy disarm is "You are confusing privacy with secrecy. It is no secret what happens in the bathroom. It doesn't mean we are going to remove the doors because people still want privacy"

No, that's not an easy disarm. They just say "you're welcome to watch me poop".

"great, I'll put up a camera so I can watch even when we're not together! I'll share the vids on your FB wall, in case our other friends also want to see"
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