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DevOps is a culture, not a role

dev.jlelse.eu

31–40 of 139 posts

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#31

"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…

> In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer"

I don't find the title 'Systems Engineer' to be in widespread usage at tech startups in SV, so I'm not sure what to expect from one. To be honest, I would expect Systems Engineers to be working on hardware.

The infrastructure automation work done at modern tech startups is best described by the title 'DevOps Engineering'. If you're posting a job where the requirements include using automation code to set up and configure CI/CD, monitoring, alerting, Databases, Analytics, AWS, GCE, Heroku or other 3rd-party SAAS tools, the job title in widespread usage that encompasses that is DevOps. The Webmaster, Ops, DBA, SRE, IT, Systems Engineer, and SysAdmin titles describe different skillsets and are therefore less useful for describing a role with these kinds of requirements.

Here's an AWS-specific, but otherwise useful reference of a modern 'DevOps' skillset: https://aws.amazon.com/certification/certified-devops-engine...

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#32

Having worked on over 100 DevOps initiatives, I'm inclined to disagree. 8 years into DevOps, automation, cloud computing etc, it's time to accept that DevOps is a specialism and a function that companies - especially big ones - need to put into place in order to adopt the principles. See here for further thoughts - https://devops.com/im-happy-devops-engineer-job-title/

and, if you are going to bring in a person or persons to be that 'Devops specialist' and help your devops transformation, don't bother if you aren't going to empower them to facilitate real changes, or if you are going to put them in their own little silo and leave them to get on with just automating some manual stuff - that way you will have some automation that may or may not do what you want, but you won't achieve real transformation and reap the benefits thereof.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#33

Having worked on over 100 DevOps initiatives, I'm inclined to disagree. 8 years into DevOps, automation, cloud computing etc, it's time to accept that DevOps is a specialism and a function that companies - especially big ones - need to put into place in order to adopt the principles. See here for further thoughts - https://devops.com/im-happy-devops-engineer-job-title/

If you have the job title "DevOps X", then you've missed the point of DevOps. The entire thing was brought in to remove the silos between SysOps and Dev. If you have people in the "DevOps" role, then you've just created a new silo, which means you just have traditional SysOps with a new and fashionable, but less meaningful name.

Unfortunately, "Cultural Engineer" as a title has some pretty scary implications. So the DevOps Engineer is becoming a cultural engineer of the company with a better name.

Which of course is title inflation and title overloading. Now if they'd just overload the salaries, we'd be set.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#34
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can assure you that [CFEngine and Puppet] have enough differences [...] that in no way you can consider using one as a substitute for the other. Like what?

memory footprint, performance,different "runtime" etc ?

And how these affect operator's workflow? That is, the ways an operator interacts with the tools?

The facts that Java is garbage collected or that it runs on virtual machine don't fundamentally change how programmers write code in it compared to e.g. C++. It's the same type of tool ("paradigm"). Erlang, however, is substantially different.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#35
I used to repeat this statement, but a few years of the current pattern, I disagree.

(I'm going to generalize for UNIX systems, apologies in advance)

Your traditional systems engineers are well versed in the ways of UNIX, but that does not automatically qualify them to wear the DevOps hat.

And vice versa. Systems and DevOps are two different sides of the house.

There is an entire tooling set that someone with the DevOps attribute needs to be aware of (CI/CD, tools that enable code review, etc), how they tie into the tools that the developers use, and how to troubleshoot when these things break down.

You, Systems Engineer, will be called when someone can't run "npm install" and an ERRNO message scrolls down the screen. While it could be something as innocent as a missing header file from an external dependency, it's still on you to rapidly troubleshoot and resolve.

You also need someone with UNIX and networking infrastructure chops. Someone who is familiar with a how to generate and read a packet capture, or maybe even use strace.

You, DevOps, will be asked why does it take forever-and-a-half to run 'ls' in a directory containing 10,000 files. Scratch that, you will asked to make it faster.

It's unreasonable to ask either of these folks to stretch and cover the other role, it results in a lot of resentment in how they're expected to do "two jobs" as well as complaints from developers that the DevOps/Systems Engineer's priorities and timelines don't line up with their own.

Worse, you'll see abominations (a relative viewpoint) because everyone knows their tools the best. To a person with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

I've seen automated DNS failover triggered via Jenkins, and I've seen automated code deployment triggered via cron on a 5 minute schedule.

DevOps is more than automation, it's about enabling developers to rapidly iterate in a sensible way that doesn't cause too much wake around a growing startup, an already functioning business, or a fast moving behemoth.

It's about enabling operations to rapidly provision new applications, monitor existing applications, properly perform capacity planning, and create repeatable infrastructure ...repeatedly.

And it's about both developers and operations coming together to onboard new employees into the environment in a short timeframe, so they can become productive.

This is all not to say that DevOps and traditional Systems Engineers + Network Engineers should live on different teams. Ideally, they're all on the same team, with different roles, and plenty of communication and cross-training.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#36
post #4

I do not know. We always had "DevOPS" aka sysadmin that knew C,perl and bunch of others. Then it became too much for a single person to know everything and we invented "more ops" and "more programmer". Now we have better tools albeit more complex and we have decided that we again can have this "DevOPS" person whatever that means. But again we are facing this dilemma when there are literally thousands of different too…

DevOps is a cultural idea. It's supposed to be the collaboration between sysops and dev, in order to break down the traditional silos. Having a "devops" team or role creates a new silo, hence the reason it's BS to have it.

Sadly this. Speculating on why -

Doing development work, whether it is application development or infrastructure automation, is really hard if you are being interupted frequently.

Traditionally, you avoid interupting programmers by putting some kind of buisness analysis layer ontop of them. That might be a product owner or just telling everyone to communicate requirements through tickets.

But you can't build stuff without talking to eachother. So programmers working on similar stuff tend to chat eachother, sit near eachother. They chat in an informal way.

The trouble is that, for DevOps, often the developers are customers / users. If you chat to them the way you chat to the other DevOps, you'll never get any work done.

Infrastucture automation can happen 2 ways - either the developers take over the IT, or the IT take over that part of the development. IT support organisations have a very anti-customer culture to be honest. Combine that with the need to protect engineers from interuption and you get a very hard silo.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#37

"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…

It is not the engineers that call themselves 'Devops'.

It's the recruiters and managers.

Every engineer that I know that holds the 'Devops' title hates it, but has no choice in it.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#38
Linux basement monkey/Sysadmin supporting a dev Team and soon clients, here!

I dont care about nomenclature. I chose my weapons, and i can do fine with them; jenkins, artifactory, puppet, docker, vagrant and ammonite. All strung together using scala and bash scripts. Github MDs for docs and svn because it was there and the lads and ladies here like it.

Anyone can choose a stack. They just have to get good at it.

VALAR MORGHULIS!

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#39

Yes yes, we get it, it's a mindset not a role. Now could we hire a DevOps guy to setup that CI/CD pipeline, ChatOps stuff, Kubernetes and dev/staging/prod flow so the coders can ship. ;) The original thought was beautiful but the way I see it: DevOps is a branch where you specialise. After school people might learn front/back/db stuff and then specialise to "DevOps stuff" -- or then you have more sysops kind of peopl…

I hate specialization, and I want the person who develop something to think about how that stuff will be deployed and kept online. In particular, some tradeoffs have to be made between the development side and the production side, and I want the same person to see both side and decide with a technical criterion (or just choose one option, and later reverse course and change it), not on a "it's not my problem" criterion.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#40
post #25
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative third definition: Make the devs also be the ops guys

you mean the ops guys. and yeah it's just an easy way to take nerds and make them do more stuff so you can save that extra 85-100k salary. More profit for the shareholders, what's not to love.

I did indeed. Good catch.
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