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Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

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Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#61

Post by mc32 »

emodendroket wrote: post #18
wyldfire wrote: post #3

This site [1] seems like a great complement to usafacts.org. It's great that these philanthropists are working on solutions to help us understand the empirical results of our policies and politicians. [1] https://measuresforjustice.org/portal/

I wonder about USAFacts. When I checked it out there were a ton of financial figures over a period of decades that didn't seem to be inflation-adjusted, which I think is likely to totally mislead people.

I think it's better to just have the historical numbers. That way you can adjust as you wish, rather than having to try and figure out whether their adjustment makes sense or not. Raw numbers in this case leaves the politics to you rather than putting them there for you.

Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#62

Post by bobbington »

fil_a_del_fee_a wrote: post #40
the_cat_kittles wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what a dumb thing to say. look at history- some presidents have been bad, and some good. you are saying they are all the same. wrong.

I would say since JFK, they all have pledged allegiance to the Military Industrial Complex. Even with Trump, I had some faith based on his mentions of real issues like heroin abuse, but something changed him.. Made him fall in line.

I think what "made him fall in line" is the senate and House of Representatives, along with the courts to a lesser extent.

The fact is while the president may be an honest man, it matters very little because the real change happens among the hundreds of legislators who make the laws. Many of them are bought, and even a perfectly intentioned president must compromise with their interests if he wants to get anything done

Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#63

Post by timoth3y »

fil_a_del_fee_a wrote: post #40
the_cat_kittles wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what a dumb thing to say. look at history- some presidents have been bad, and some good. you are saying they are all the same. wrong.

I would say since JFK, they all have pledged allegiance to the Military Industrial Complex. Even with Trump, I had some faith based on his mentions of real issues like heroin abuse, but something changed him.. Made him fall in line.

Except perhaps Carter. He canceled the B-1 bomber. returned the Panama canal. He campaigned against what he called "The Imperial Presidency".

Of course, he was reviled for doing so.

Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#64

Post by kakarot »

emodendroket wrote: post #11
659087 wrote: post #9

I can't help but assume Zuckerberg's motive for supporting this has nothing to do with helping society, and everything to do with helping himself and his future campaign (and distracting people from Facebook's role in Trump's election).

Who cares what his motive is?

People who are trying to pay attention to what goes on around them.

When something happens, you look for the causes and motivations. If you just focus on the event itself, you have a much narrower understanding of how to anticipate or prevent such an event in the future

Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#65

Post by emodendroket »

ptaipale wrote: post #60
emodendroket wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible for an amount to be more in nominal dollars but less in real dollars if you don't adjust for inflation. If you had $20 in 1913 it would be equivalent to having almost 500 bucks today. Basically, it can look like spending on something has gone way up even if in reality it has gone down.

I think this is perfectly fine if the data just states whether the sums are in adjusted or nominal currency. Doing the conversion is an elementary school thing. And not even that: just type "1000 dollars in 1947" to Google, and you'll get a number of links that do the conversion. Sometimes it's the deceptive conversions that are a problem, so keeping in nominal sums helps with data integrity.

Well, I have a few problems with that:

Firstly, they don't clearly explain that the figures aren't inflation-adjusted. You have to surmise that. And we're talking about line graphs. I think you are seriously overestimating the number of people who will think to do the conversion and follow through, rather than just looking at the general direction of the chart and a few figures.

I am not sure what you mean when you say that "sometimes deceptive conversions are the problem," but in my view there isn't much reason to produce a line graph for something like average salary over time or average social spending over time as a line graph without inflation-adjusted figures unless you either are ignorant of the issues with such data or intend to mislead people (and indeed such graphs are quite misleading since the numbers go up but not apace with inflation). I can't see much legitimate interest in such a graph.

Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#66

Post by ptaipale »

emodendroket wrote: post #65
ptaipale wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is perfectly fine if the data just states whether the sums are in adjusted or nominal currency. Doing the conversion is an elementary school thing. And not even that: just type "1000 dollars in 1947" to Google, and you'll get a number of links that do the conversion. Sometimes it's the deceptive conversions that are a problem, so keeping in nominal sums helps with data integrity.

Well, I have a few problems with that: Firstly, they don't clearly explain that the figures aren't inflation-adjusted. You have to surmise that. And we're talking about line graphs. I think you are seriously overestimating the number of people who will think to do the conversion and follow through, rather than just looking at the general direction of the chart and a few figures. I am not sure what you mean when you s…

> you mean when you say that "sometimes deceptive conversions are the problem,

I mean conversions where the index for conversion is chosen deceptively. The general inflation index is almost always at least tolerable, but occasionally the conversions use some other price index that produces more dramatic and politically desired results.

Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#67

Post by emodendroket »

ptaipale wrote: post #66
emodendroket wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I have a few problems with that: Firstly, they don't clearly explain that the figures aren't inflation-adjusted. You have to surmise that. And we're talking about line graphs. I think you are seriously overestimating the number of people who will think to do the conversion and follow through, rather than just looking at the general direction of the chart and a few figures. I am not sure what you mean when you s…

> you mean when you say that "sometimes deceptive conversions are the problem, I mean conversions where the index for conversion is chosen deceptively. The general inflation index is almost always at least tolerable, but occasionally the conversions use some other price index that produces more dramatic and politically desired results.

OK, fair enough. Nevertheless, I stand by my criticisms.

Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#68

Post by ionised »

the_cat_kittles wrote: post #6

to me, the fact that david plouffe is working with zuckerberg removes an doubt (if there was any to begin with) that mark is going to run for president. he will be close to macron's age in 2020, though still younger. shares are trading at 25 cents on the dollar in a market predicting his presidential run: https://www.predictit.org/Contract/5534/Will-Facebook's-Mark... just sitting here thinking about him, im kinda to…

> does it seem like he gives alot of thought to morality and justice?

No, not from what I can see.

Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#69

Post by ionised »

emodendroket wrote: post #11
659087 wrote: post #9

I can't help but assume Zuckerberg's motive for supporting this has nothing to do with helping society, and everything to do with helping himself and his future campaign (and distracting people from Facebook's role in Trump's election).

Who cares what his motive is?

People with a stake in society.

Re: Zuckerberg-Backed Data Trove Exposes the Injustices of Criminal Justice

#70

Post by zepto »

omginternets wrote: post #53
taxicabjesus wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In case I wasn't clear: I think any sensible policy has to include punitive measures, along with adequate support. What sort of punitive measure is appropriate to use on someone whose doctor turned her into an alcoholic? What sort of punitive measures are appropriate for use on depressed people? "Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse.

>"Sensible policy" would acknowledge that prison usually makes people's actual behavioral problems worse. Indeed. Prison is not the only form of punishment, and indeed it is not the most effective (in a large, if not overwhelming, majority of cases). I think if you stopped and caught your breath, you'd realize we're mostly in agreement.

Nothing you wrote before this suggests any agreement. I believe you actually are in a fair degree of agreement now, but your approach to communication didn't convey that and you should review it if you intend to be constructive.
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