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At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

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Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#161

Post by anothercomment »

cjslep wrote: post #126
anothercomment wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Trump was called Hitler, Idiot, Psychopath and all sorts of other things. Presidents simply attract some amount of hatred.

Yes, to take your point further: instead of any of those names, for Obama people chose a racial slur. They could have just as easily used Hitler, Idiot, Psycopath. That would have been a better test of whether our society was in some post-race society that people think we're in just because we got one black president, once . If that doesn't make you stop and think, I'm really not sure what else will.

They just call people what the suppose annoys them most. That is why they call women cunts and men gay or sexist or whatever. Would you say sexism is only over when men are being called cunts and bitches?

Actually it seems to me Nigger is a lot softer than Hitler. It basically means "black person I don't like because they are black". Hitler means "psychopathic mass murderer".

Besides, this is again the "there is an asshole in Kansas" line of thinking. Just because you can find somebody, somewhere in the universe who is an asshole, it doesn't prove that everybody is an asshole.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#162

Post by [deleted] »

whitemale wrote: post #136
cjslep wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The former president of the US was a bkack man ...and when he was reelected president, the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER". Racism and systemic oppression didn't get solved just because you can cherrypick examples well. I don't see non-white people oppressing white people beca…

> Racism and systemic oppression didn't get solved just because you can cherrypick examples well. And then you just cherry picked an example: > ...and when he was reelected president, the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER". Good job for being consistent! > I don't see non-white peo…

[deleted]

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#163

Post by anothercomment »

chipgap98 wrote: post #149
anothercomment wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False accusations are also harassment.

Agreed. But it seems like the problem we have now is that more people are being harassed and not being taken seriously with their claims than people making false claims. Is that a world we are okay with living in? Regardless of the answer we should be having that conversation

One problem I have with these list is, as you say, they make it seem as if there is a huge problem with people being harassed. I am not convinced that is true, because the context is missing. Like how many people work for Google, how many incidents are there per month, and how many of these incidents even warrant a complaint?

There is already a debate about the "princess" incident. Eventually somebody will make statistics about that list, and the "princess" incident will be counted as a harassment incident along the lines of grabbing somebodies ass or blackmailing them for sex over losing their job. That seems very misleading.

Also, I'd argue the existence of such a list is already harassment of a lot of people. If now you have to watch your back for every comment, it doesn't make for a very pleasant work day.

I can not judge if "princess" was harassment or not, because we lack context - and so do the readers of the list. It could be friends who habitually edge each other on, like calling a vegetarian "princess" to probe their determination. Or it could be said with disdain, Redneck style (anybody who doesn't eat meat can't amount to much). We don't know. But everybody now has to worry about their words being taken out of context and glued to the wall.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#164

Post by Chris2048 »

nerdponx wrote: post #91
Chris2048 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's a strawman, since I didn't say that. You talk of vague "inclusivity", and hyperbolic "say anything I want"; but the post specifically referred to "Calling someone a 'princess' for liking salads" - when are we going to be inclusive of differing opinions and forms of expression? Seems a very specific interpretational framework is being mandated here. Using rough language versus running off to HR when offende…

There are so many other/better ways to question someone's taste, even in jest. This is also why I originally said it depends on the context. You can say it to a work buddy who you hang out with after hours. You can't say it to someone from another team who you don't know very well. Use your head.

better according to who?

If you retreat when pushed, they'll just keep pushing. The issue here isn't whether you offend someone, it's who should be sided with when it goes to HR.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#165

Post by Chris2048 »

auserperson wrote: post #90
Chris2048 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep that kind of dialogue out of the workplace. Or freely leave until you find a place that's cool.

This reeks of privilege. A lot of people leaves until they find a place where they can get a paycheck, do their job, and not be discriminated. If you can choose jobs for their "coolness" factor, you don't seem to have this problem. So you should at least understand that inclusive and professional behavior, even though is "uncool" for you, it's vital for a lot of people.

The 'p' word always seems to come out, as a kind of insult or accusation, I assume since you used it with "reek" (implication of negativity) this is the case here?

Yes, in fact anyone living in the west is privileged. Since we are talking in the context of software engineers, we're probably better off than most. Who are you talking about?

> get a paycheck, do their job, and not be discriminated

What "discrimination"? Being called a princess? or being shamed/fired for calling someone a princess?

It doesn't quite fit that someone "just" wants to collect their paycheck, yet rocks the boat on such a minor issue.

> inclusive and professional behavior

Are just words, without substance. Are tattoos unprofessional? or would discriminating against people with them not be inclusive?

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#166

Post by Chris2048 »

scandox wrote: post #64
Chris2048 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some companies purposely have a laid-back culture. Not a 'bro' culture, but a friendly, social one - that includes jabbing and jiving. I love those beanbag-chair, not corp environments. Not everything that isn't corporate is 'unprofessional'. Wearing trainers to work was unprofessional, until it became established; now tech CEOs compete on who has the most expensive sneakers. > If HR was involved, it's because someon…

I dunno maybe I'm crazy but "jabbing and jiving" is the last thing I ever want at work. Directness, professionalism and - yes! - impersonal conversation - is what I would generally prefer. And as for competitive dressing. Bring back uniforms is all I can say to that. Edit: grammar

Do you love your cubicle, worker 000843874?

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#167

Post by Chris2048 »

krzyk wrote: post #82
Chris2048 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't exceeds like getting a bonus? You still want bonus while on paternity? I thought only legal requirement is base rate and expected payments - which a bonus is not?

As others have wrote, paternity is like a vacation. It's time off work, you can't be evaluated on that time, it's like it doesn't exists for evaluation. So if you exceeded expectations a day before taking paternity you still do the day you are back.

I wouldn't expect a bonus on vacation either.

It depends on what the rating is used for.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#169

Post by detaro »

to3m wrote: post #62
masklinn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are a genuine princess (not necessarily outlandish if you live in a place which 1. still has royalty and 2. has a pretty down-to-earth one — after all we've recently learned Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands moonlights as a commercial co-pilot) — or if they come to work wearing a tiara, or if they ask you?

But when you're talking to a princess you would typically use the form Your Highness, or similar. Anyway, I was thinking of the sorts of situations that actually turn up, on average, for most people. There are only so many princesses to go round, a tiara is highly unusual office garb, and I've never heard of anybody asking to be called "princess" in a professional capacity, at least not in white collar work such as G…

Google has a security manager with the title of "Security Princess": https://twitter.com/laparisa

(but yes, clearly exceptional case)

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#170

Post by cjslep »

anothercomment wrote: post #161
cjslep wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, to take your point further: instead of any of those names, for Obama people chose a racial slur. They could have just as easily used Hitler, Idiot, Psycopath. That would have been a better test of whether our society was in some post-race society that people think we're in just because we got one black president, once . If that doesn't make you stop and think, I'm really not sure what else will.

They just call people what the suppose annoys them most. That is why they call women cunts and men gay or sexist or whatever. Would you say sexism is only over when men are being called cunts and bitches? Actually it seems to me Nigger is a lot softer than Hitler. It basically means "black person I don't like because they are black". Hitler means "psychopathic mass murderer". Besides, this is again the "there is an a…

I don't think that first line is true, most adults are able to be disagreeable without using a slur, such as us. So no, I would say sexism wouldn't exist if people could disagree on merits of discussion instead of any insults (which, by nature of personal attack, immediately invokes all *isms of the victim).

Second, there's a huge difference between insulting someone because of their perceived character ("asshole") with little cultural baggage, and insulting someone for being literally in their own skin with a word that has huge cultural baggage. On this point I would hope we would agree. Also, I find comparisons of Trump to Hitler silly and overreactionary (and I have a book recommendation for those that want to learn how Hitler actually rose to power).

Finally, I do agree that the lashing out against Trump supporters is bad. Just as it was bad that Obama supporters also had to put up with burning crosses in their frontyards when he was elected. Both sides can't see this sucks for everyone at different times for some reason and it's a stupid cycle.

The ultimate lack of empathy from both sides is what really bothers me, the culmination of which is the continued ignorance of believing we are in some post-race society. I may as well proclaim we are a species that lives on multiple planets because we sent humans to the Moon once.

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