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At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

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Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#131

Post by Kenji »

jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

Your comment contains a lot of appeals to emotion and very few facts, if any at all (for example, the claim that the "vast majority" of rape accusations is true definitely needs a source). This is the hallmark of someone who goes along with mainstream opinion without thinking for themselves. I urge you and everyone else to think deeply before reiterating what you have heard or read from others.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#132

Post by tyingq »

cjslep wrote: post #101
whitemale wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> privileged white men like myself The former president of the US was a black man, he was arguably in one of the most privileged positions in the US / World. The current Chancellor of Germany happens to be a women, which is the most privileged positions in Europe. I'm also sure that you will find a lot of white men who lack anything that can be considered privilege. > why people might submit anonymously to such a lis…

> The former president of the US was a bkack man ...and when he was reelected president, the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER". Racism and systemic oppression didn't get solved just because you can cherrypick examples well. I don't see non-white people oppressing white people beca…

>the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER".

Not to minimize it, but I do wonder how often this sort of thing is elaborate trolling versus racism. Especially on a college campus.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#133

Post by Danihan »

sumeno wrote: post #127
Danihan wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... He just had a tan from tanning / being in Florida. http://www.marieclaire.com/politics/news/a26621/donald-trump...

OK? The US doesn't have a history of oppressing white people with tans either

So you're in the camp of "It's not racism or bigotry, as long as it's against whites?"

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#134

Post by humanrebar »

jlebar wrote: post #100
humanrebar wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would encourage those of you who have such a reaction to step back and consider why people might submit anonymously to such a list, and what benefits a company might get from having one. While we're doing thought exercises, let's also step back and consider why someone would value things like evidence-based judgments and due process. Someone could just value justice and fairness, including channels for recourse w…

> let's also step back and consider why someone would value things like evidence-based judgments and due process. I agree wholeheartedly that there is nothing wrong with valuing evidence-based judgements and due process. But that is not what I was ranting against. Conflating the trope of immediately jumping to a concern about false accusations while ignoring victims with "valuing evidence-based judgements and due pro…

> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims?

What makes you think they don't care about victims? My loved ones and I volunteer a lot in this area.

> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations...

There are personal (verbal, emotional abuse) and social (bullying) forms of abuse that hinge on slander, lies, and manipulation to punish people or to otherwise assert power. Wanting to make sure that is not an issue is wanting to protect people.

I guess we could argue about which kinds of innocent people are worth protecting, but I'm not really interested in getting into that business.

There aren't many specifics being posted here about particular stories, but there mostly seems to be consensus that egregious behavior requires at least immediate dismissal and that less cut-and-dry incidents require some sort of correction. There also seems to be agreement that better awareness of poor behavior is a good thing.

There just doesn't seem to be consensus that anonymous posts sent out by anonymous curators is the best way to go about this. That doesn't mean some people are indifferent to awful things. They're just wary that the tools we use to help people don't end up hurting others.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#135

Post by whitemale »

chipgap98 wrote: post #98
whitemale wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> privileged white men like myself The former president of the US was a black man, he was arguably in one of the most privileged positions in the US / World. The current Chancellor of Germany happens to be a women, which is the most privileged positions in Europe. I'm also sure that you will find a lot of white men who lack anything that can be considered privilege. > why people might submit anonymously to such a lis…

> The former president of the US was a black man, he was arguably in one of the most privileged positions in the US / World. That's not what privilege is. Its about how society treats people as a whole. As as a whole, white men benefit from their gender and race. Yes there are white people who are poor or have other issues. Yes there are black people people who are wealthy or in positions of power. Citing individual…

How does society treat people as whole? can you explain what advantage do non-white-males have over everyone else?

> Citing individual examples doesn't discount macro trends

Sorry mate, if you look at statistics, Asians earn more in America than 'whites', so I guess we should start calling Asians privileged then, right?

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#136

Post by whitemale »

cjslep wrote: post #101
whitemale wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> privileged white men like myself The former president of the US was a black man, he was arguably in one of the most privileged positions in the US / World. The current Chancellor of Germany happens to be a women, which is the most privileged positions in Europe. I'm also sure that you will find a lot of white men who lack anything that can be considered privilege. > why people might submit anonymously to such a lis…

> The former president of the US was a bkack man ...and when he was reelected president, the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER". Racism and systemic oppression didn't get solved just because you can cherrypick examples well. I don't see non-white people oppressing white people beca…

> Racism and systemic oppression didn't get solved just because you can cherrypick examples well.

And then you just cherry picked an example:

> ...and when he was reelected president, the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER".

Good job for being consistent!

> I don't see non-white people oppressing white people because Trump is in power, calling them/him a "cracker" or other slurs, on the same continuous intensity

Trump is being called names all the time, they even call Trump voters deplorable.

> Racism and systemic oppression

If this so called systematic oppression would exists, than how did Obama get elected? It seems to me that even if there is systemic racism, it's ineffective.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#137

Post by sumeno »

Danihan wrote: post #133
sumeno wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK? The US doesn't have a history of oppressing white people with tans either

So you're in the camp of "It's not racism or bigotry, as long as it's against whites?"

I do not believe that people making fun of Trump's bad tan are motivated by racism, no.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#138

Post by metaphorm »

jlebar wrote: post #100
humanrebar wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would encourage those of you who have such a reaction to step back and consider why people might submit anonymously to such a list, and what benefits a company might get from having one. While we're doing thought exercises, let's also step back and consider why someone would value things like evidence-based judgments and due process. Someone could just value justice and fairness, including channels for recourse w…

> let's also step back and consider why someone would value things like evidence-based judgments and due process. I agree wholeheartedly that there is nothing wrong with valuing evidence-based judgements and due process. But that is not what I was ranting against. Conflating the trope of immediately jumping to a concern about false accusations while ignoring victims with "valuing evidence-based judgements and due pro…

> Why would so many of the HN comments jump to worrying about the false accusations, without paying any heed for the victims?

you're connecting two points that are not naturally connected. caring about false accusations does not exclude caring about victims.

additionally, some awareness of the current political climate is necessary for this discussion. false accusations have been weaponized in other contexts.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#139

Post by tehlike »

trevyn wrote: post #81
tehlike wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What's wrong with simply firing people who are implicated in harassment and possibly reporting them to law enforcement?" on what evidence/grounds?

None needed, California is an "at-will" employment state -- you can be fired for any legal reason or none at all.

that's my point. without evidence, firing people for "sexual harrasment" just opens up can of worms.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#140

Post by metaphorm »

tyingq wrote: post #132
cjslep wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The former president of the US was a bkack man ...and when he was reelected president, the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER". Racism and systemic oppression didn't get solved just because you can cherrypick examples well. I don't see non-white people oppressing white people beca…

>the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER". Not to minimize it, but I do wonder how often this sort of thing is elaborate trolling versus racism. Especially on a college campus.

I don't see a difference. racist trolling is a form of racism.
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