Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS • Hacker News Board

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#21

Post by rwmj » Mon, May 22, 2017, 6:51 PM UTC

tsaoutourpants wrote: post #13

_0w8t wrote: post #10

As lithium batteries are opaque to X-Rays, perhaps a ban on laptops with batteries should be considered. This will surely push for standard swappable batteries and standard power supplies so the laptops could be used on board without batteries.

What? No, that's a wholly unnecessary solution (though more standardization of batteries would certainly be nice). Swab the outside of the laptop for bomb residue, which would be especially difficult to clean from a laptop because the stronger solvents to clean with (like acetone) would mark the plastic. Or hire more dogs. Or make a "puffer machine" for laptops (blasts with air and then samples the air for explosive…

Does swabbing work? I can imagine that the "batteries" (ie bomb) would be prepared, sealed and cleaned by one person, and then inserted into the laptop by another person so there's no contamination.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#22

Post by subterfudge44 » Mon, May 22, 2017, 6:53 PM UTC

leggomylibro wrote: post #7

>So why was the stolen x-ray equipment kept a secret? I asked my source if there was some security reason for keeping the stolen x-ray equipment from the public, and was told, unequivocally, no. “It’s because the mom from the midwest planning to fly her kids to Disney would freak out. They are worried that people would stop flying if they knew.” Kind of ironic, because I've already stopped flying - not because I'm af…

> They are worried that people would stop flying if they knew.

And that describes what the whole TSA thing is about. It is a theatre. There was no need to put laptop ban either because it is just as useless. One has to only check Quora answers on all sort of things people have taken through security which includes 2 full size Katana Swords, loaded guns, Fire starters, Ethanol bottles and various other items.

I understand government can not admit TSA is ineffective. But they can surely reduce the pain for us.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#23

Post by tsaoutourpants » Mon, May 22, 2017, 6:53 PM UTC

jperras wrote: post #17

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a relatively benign way to fix this simply be that the TSA agents randomly reorient/flop some carry on luggage items in the bins before they go through the scanner?

That would definitely help. Or, simply re-run bags where there is opaque stuff that the screener is unsure about, oriented in a new direction. But, that wouldn't necessarily solve all the problems, as laptop batteries are opaque in all directions, and so if you got a lead metal box and filled it with explosives, it may look much the same.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#24

Post by subterfudge44 » Mon, May 22, 2017, 6:55 PM UTC

One of the sad things about airport security is that there is no scope for private innovation. It is a military industrial complex of using substandard solutions for potentially non existent problems while wasting insane amount of money.

May be there is a need for the security theatre but then we can at least get good at it. Can Elon Musk design a better airport security ?

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#25

Post by tsaoutourpants » Mon, May 22, 2017, 6:56 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #21

tsaoutourpants wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? No, that's a wholly unnecessary solution (though more standardization of batteries would certainly be nice). Swab the outside of the laptop for bomb residue, which would be especially difficult to clean from a laptop because the stronger solvents to clean with (like acetone) would mark the plastic. Or hire more dogs. Or make a "puffer machine" for laptops (blasts with air and then samples the air for explosive…

Does swabbing work? I can imagine that the "batteries" (ie bomb) would be prepared, sealed and cleaned by one person, and then inserted into the laptop by another person so there's no contamination.

It's hard to remove all trace, but yes, in theory you could avoid it by being really careful. Then again, if you work in a "bomb factory," there's trace everywhere, so it may be quite difficult.

Also, the "turn on your device" thing they sometimes do offers some mitigation against this. Obviously, you can think of ways that may defeat this too, but to defeat all of the security, accurately, in one small package that doesn't look sketchy, is not easy. Fortunately, most terrorists are not the brightest people in the world.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#26

Post by tsaoutourpants » Mon, May 22, 2017, 6:59 PM UTC

subterfudge44 wrote: post #24

One of the sad things about airport security is that there is no scope for private innovation. It is a military industrial complex of using substandard solutions for potentially non existent problems while wasting insane amount of money. May be there is a need for the security theatre but then we can at least get good at it. Can Elon Musk design a better airport security ?

Fuck Elon Musk, can you design a tool that would make airport security better? I bet in 15 minutes, most HN readers could come up with something that would be cheaper, more effective, and faster to use than the current tool set. There's indeed money to be made here (and good to be done), even if the easiest way would be to patent your idea and sell it to the military industrial complex you speak of.

Fun fact: the parent company of the company that makes the TSA body scanners (L-3) also owns the company that made "waterboarding" famous. It is, indeed, the military industrial complex.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#27

Post by tantalor » Mon, May 22, 2017, 7:05 PM UTC

tsaoutourpants wrote: post #4

koenigdavidmj wrote: post #3

Hey look, a security crisis that can only be fixed by requiring that we prove our devices are functional, most likely by turning them on, logging in, and showing that there are a few documents present. And in some cases, extra manual evaluation will be required, entailing taking that logged-in laptop into a back room for further inspection. They won't copy everything onto a disk of their own---honest!

VeraCrypt (f/k/a TrueCrypt) is your friend!

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#28

Post by tantalor » Mon, May 22, 2017, 7:08 PM UTC

wwwv wrote: post #15

_0w8t wrote: post #10

As lithium batteries are opaque to X-Rays, perhaps a ban on laptops with batteries should be considered. This will surely push for standard swappable batteries and standard power supplies so the laptops could be used on board without batteries.

They are not opaque to X-Rays, much less the ludicrous penetrating power used in baggage inspection. Baggage X-rays can happily penetrate inches of metal, nothing short of lead brick will obscure contents and that's going to raise other questions. Where did you get that nonsense from?

>Where did you get that nonsense from

From the article: "since lithium batteries are completely opaque to x-rays"

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#29

Post by dingaling » Mon, May 22, 2017, 7:09 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #20

finid wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a stateroom on a cargo ship sounds like it would be fun. Something to try one of these days.

No longer available. Considered a hijacking risk.

That is accurate; there are very very few non-crew berths available on cargo ships nowadays. I know because I've researched alternative means of travelling to see the 2017 Solar eclipse.

Re: Laptop Ban a Reaction to X-Ray Equipment Stolen by ISIS

#30

Post by sailfast » Mon, May 22, 2017, 7:09 PM UTC

leggomylibro wrote: post #7

>So why was the stolen x-ray equipment kept a secret? I asked my source if there was some security reason for keeping the stolen x-ray equipment from the public, and was told, unequivocally, no. “It’s because the mom from the midwest planning to fly her kids to Disney would freak out. They are worried that people would stop flying if they knew.” Kind of ironic, because I've already stopped flying - not because I'm af…

Next time I'd really appreciate it if folks didn't automatically disparage an entire REGION of the country as ignorant of the risks of a) living b) driving to the airport c) flying once at the airport.

As far as I can tell, DHS are the ones not properly managing risks here, not the mom traveling to Disney.