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The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

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Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#41

Post by kogepathic »

mmjaa wrote: post #9
meddlepal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right…

> It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs.

Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it.

You're talking about a country where a major political party actively works to remove funds from women's healthcare. [0]

I fully agree that these substances should be legalised for the reasons you mentioned, but I think it's laughable to think present-day politicians give a shit about these people. If anything, they'd probably face substantial lobby from police unions concerned legalisation would lead to job cuts.

[0] http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/business/article145926149...

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#42

Post by pm90 »

shmolyneaux wrote: post #33
ep103 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tl;dr: To put it one last way: if drugs were legal, the pharmaceutical industry would be free to iterate on making recreational drugs, that don't have the drawbacks of the things people currently make in back alleys. The taboo truth is people do drugs because they are fun, and people want the drugs that are fun to do, and don't have negative health consequences. Many drugs are relatively safe to do (in small quantiti…

Skydiving is actually fairly safe, see http://www.uspa.org/facts-faqs/safety for stats. There were 0.0061 fatalities per 1000 jumps in 2015 .

Yeah and there is very little risk of getting addicted to skydiving :). At least for most people.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#43

Post by knownothing »

tyingq wrote: post #28
knownothing wrote: post #15

We invaded Afghanistan--the world's largest producer of poppies for heroin and opium--in 2001. Production has also been on the rise since then. An interesting correlation.

Most sources I can find say that the vast majority of heroin in the US comes from Mexico and South America.

The poppies used for heroin production can be grown in South America but most of it comes from Asia.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#44

Post by throwaway2016a »

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are...

1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids

2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all)

3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more likely to say "screw it" and try a harder drug. In the vein of, "I'm already doing something I can go to jail for, what's one more thing?" Legalizing keeps people out of the criminal class (increases barrier of entry to it)

I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that.

I got in a argument with a close relative (a retired police officer) and another close relative (a doctor) about this on Easter. There arguments were entirely based on emotion and lot so logical fallacies. And understandably, they have both seen the darkest sides of what drugs can do. But criminalizing doesn't help those people.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#45

Post by lawpoop »

meddlepal wrote: post #6
diogenescynic wrote: post #3

The drug war has failed. Legalize all drugs and tax them. Spend the tax money on rehab, schools, and public universities. We are just propping up drug lords in Latin America to feed our insatiable demand for drugs.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

In the early 1900s, when you could buy morphine at the corner drugstore, addicts took morphine daily and went about their lives, living out a normal lifespan.

Because of the iron law of prohibition, under prohibition, only the most potent, dangerous forms of the drug are available, so addicts use them, overdose, die, etc.

Look at the problems with lack of beer and wine during prohibition, and the availability of moonshine and methanol

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#47

Post by kogepathic »

pm90 wrote: post #39
mmjaa wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right…

Just to add one more thing to this excellent comment: legalization also makes it much easier to undertake scientific studies/research of the effect of (currently) illicit drugs, which might actually help us understand them better. e.g. we know very well exactly how much alcohol is considered "safe" or causing least damage; but we still don't know about the long term effects of e.g. MJ.

> legalization also makes it much easier to undertake scientific studies/research of the effect of (currently) illicit drugs

Isn't this already possible in other countries? I would have thought this would already be possible in Portugal. [0]

[0] http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,0...

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#48

Post by _acme »

ep103 wrote: post #24
meddlepal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

tl;dr: To put it one last way: if drugs were legal, the pharmaceutical industry would be free to iterate on making recreational drugs, that don't have the drawbacks of the things people currently make in back alleys. The taboo truth is people do drugs because they are fun, and people want the drugs that are fun to do, and don't have negative health consequences. Many drugs are relatively safe to do (in small quantiti…

What is it that you mean by a 'non-addictive' opioid? They're all roughly equivalent in their addictive potential. Even those that are used to treat addiction, such as buprenorphine, cause physical and mental dependence.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#49

Post by jostmey »

diogenescynic wrote: post #3

The drug war has failed. Legalize all drugs and tax them. Spend the tax money on rehab, schools, and public universities. We are just propping up drug lords in Latin America to feed our insatiable demand for drugs.

But the Heroin addiction crisis is the result of a legal drug trade--the prescription of Opioids.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#50

Post by tonyarkles »

Pigo wrote: post #26
meddlepal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

People throw out legalization because they're used to the marijuana debate. But how do you legalize a drug like fentanyl? How do you pretend you're here to protect and serve when you legalize a drug that seems like it was designed to kill people in a single use? We need to rethink the laws, and have some effective changes lead by people who understand the problem and have nothing to gain financially. But there's neve…

This all ties back to the underground shoddy manufacturing. Yes, there's piles of stories about people dying from illicit fentanyl. The problem with fentanyl is the dosing; an effective dose is measured in micrograms.

What doesn't get reported with the same sensationalism is that fentanyl is actually used medically, quite successfully. My father had knee surgery a few years ago and was prescribed slow-release fentanyl patches. I'm hazy on the details, but I think it was something like 16ug released over 12 hours. It worked just fine.

I remember hearing recently about some fentanyl deaths in Vancouver that were traced back to a poorly manufactured batch of underground pills. The problem wasn't the average dose in the pills, it was that the fentanyl and filler and binder hadn't been mixed very well before being pressed. The result was that some of the pills had a bunch of fentanyl and some didn't.

While I'm not necessarily in favour of legalizing everything, being able to freely purchase pharmaceutical grade fentanyl pills would go a long way in preventing situations like this.

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