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Chelsea Manning released from prison

cnn.com

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Re: Chelsea Manning released from prison

#211

Post by cyborgx7 »

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #197
cyborgx7 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know if the US would call for his extradition and neither does he. I understand why he would try to play it safe. I still think he should be on trial for that alleged rape.

'Alleged rape' is a term loaded with propaganda for what he is accused of, especially taking into account what the witnesses have to say about the incidents.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange...

To my knowledge, that ist what he is wanted for in Sweden. If there is a better way to express that, I would like to hear it.

Re: Chelsea Manning released from prison

#213

Post by eropple »

fizgig wrote: post #202
ntlk wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean _she_.

I think he meant exactly what he meant. Wasn't Manning still identifying as "he" when the leaks were done? Or was she already transitioned at that point? I hate this whole walking on eggshells around gender/identity politics. It detracts from the discussion for no valid reason.

There aren't really any eggshells to walk on unless you're inventing them (and the person you replied to was not impolite about the correction). Chelsea Manning identifies as a woman. This isn't something that happens overnight; it's impossible for you or I or the great-grandparent to know when Manning decided to come out to family, friends, that sort of thing. As such, it's incumbent upon us to use the most currently, and thus least likely to inadvertently offend, pronoun and referents. (This is also why it is poor form to use a trans person's pre-transition name when referring to them in the past tense. In my experience, if a trans person would rather be described using that prior name or prior pronouns for his or her prior self, he or she will let you know.)

Re: Chelsea Manning released from prison

#214

Post by vivekd »

panzer_wyrm wrote: post #21

While not rotting in prison is great - isn't it strange that Manning was pardoned, while there are a lot more pardon deserving persons among the other whistleblowers of the era. Nothing good or interesting came from those leaks. And they were legitimate threat to US security. And Snowden ones were responsible, curated and only in the areas where rights of US citizens were infringed. And yet he is stranded in Russia (…

They were very different cases:

1. Manning thought she was doing the right thing and didn't realize what she would cause. Snowden knew exactly what he was doing.

2. Manning leaked the docs to something that is probably a Russian front but something she didn't realize was a Russian front. Snowden, if he didn't turn over the leaks to the Russian and Chinese governments, certainly put them in great risk of being turned over.

Re: Chelsea Manning released from prison

#215

Post by sknuds »

jacquesm wrote: post #16
beaconstudios wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "having been a whistleblower in the most powerful government on the planet" part of Chelsea's story is considerably more risky than the "is transgendered" part. There aren't many people running around "gunning for" trans people in the same sense that there are people "gunning for" informants. Primarily in the sense that in the latter case they use actual guns.

Trans people are safe in very few places in the world.

Although there are some places where they're more accepted than gay people or than they are the western world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

Re: Chelsea Manning released from prison

#216

Post by skrebbel »

vivekd wrote: post #208

I disagree with what she did, she probably made the world a much less safe place and caused thousands if not millions of deaths through wikileaks role in inciting the Arab spring. Still I'm convinced she did it with the best of intentions and the genuine belief that she would make the world more peaceful and open. I guess she was naive so I'm glad to see her released early.

This is the attitude that keeps dictators re-elected. Vote for stability!

Re: Chelsea Manning released from prison

#217

Post by fizgig »

eropple wrote: post #213
fizgig wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he meant exactly what he meant. Wasn't Manning still identifying as "he" when the leaks were done? Or was she already transitioned at that point? I hate this whole walking on eggshells around gender/identity politics. It detracts from the discussion for no valid reason.

There aren't really any eggshells to walk on unless you're inventing them (and the person you replied to was not impolite about the correction). Chelsea Manning identifies as a woman. This isn't something that happens overnight; it's impossible for you or I or the great-grandparent to know when Manning decided to come out to family, friends, that sort of thing. As such, it's incumbent upon us to use the most currentl…

We're just gonna have to respectfully agree to disagree on some of this.

I don't go out of my way to be insensitive, but I'm not going to flush my DVD of The Matrix down the Memory Hole because it has "Wachowski Brothers" stamped on it. If the Wachowskis put out a new movie today, I'll reference them appropriately as the Wachowski sisters who produced it, but they simply weren't sisters when they created The Matrix, and I'll continue to reference the creators of that movie as brothers.

I saw a similar rewriting of history upstream in this thread, and I just can't let that slide. In fact, this is an edge case where nobody is right or wrong, so there can really be no "correction" to call out. Someone (Manning) changed the rules mid-game, so it must be expected and tolerated that not everyone will parse the output of the remainder of the game to their liking.

Re: Chelsea Manning released from prison

#218

Post by orblivion »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #37
interfixus wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then could the downvoters please explain to me how this male is supposed to be female?

Simple: A person's gender is a part of their personal identity. Chelsea Manning says that their gender is female, even if their biological sex is male. As a consequence of respect for their personal identity as a member of society (and NOT fixating on their sex organs, which is frankly creepy), most people will refer to a trans* person as the gender they identify as, not the sex they were born with. Or, if uncertain…

When we refer to things, we use words that convey our perception of them. People identify themselves a certain way, and I can identify them a certain way too. The notion of someone's gender has relevance to others. It doesn't make sense to go purely based on their own self perception.

For me, I tend to assign gender by sex. I don't want to disrespect myself by saying something I don't believe. On the other hand I don't want to disrespect others either. So for now my approach is to sidestep the issue and refer to all trans people with "they".

Re: Chelsea Manning released from prison

#220

Post by angersock »

SteveGerencser wrote: post #117
falcolas wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it's still true, as my own conversations with conservative in-laws shows.

And in my case, quite false as a conservative with many conservative friends that disagree with your anecdote. This is always the problem, personal anecdotes rarely equal data.

Unsurprising hivemind is downvoting you here; better luck next time. :(
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