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My Family’s Slave

theatlantic.com

361–370 of 645 posts

Re: My Family’s Slave

#361
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, my girlfriend is the same. She tried working as an employee and even self-employed. But finally, she's happy being a housewife. My mother and even friends frown upon me. Like I push her to be a housewife. Actually, I supported her working and even helped her to be self-employed. But she's most happy being a housewife. I think people just want to have a big home, 2 cars annually 2 holidays and that costs a l…

My wife has always had traditionally-feminine work preferences, but she's felt a lot of shame from her more left-leaning friends and coworkers (we're both moderate liberals). Similarly, my office is very liberal, and I often feel a bit judged if I mention that my wife cooked my lunch or otherwise mention that my wife's hobbies are traditionally feminine. Ironically, our conservative friends and family have never said…

The Left is not the epitome of tolerance it pretends to be any more than the Right is the epitome of morality it pretends to be.

I remember very clearly who it was that made my mother miserable for daring to enjoy being a housewife and mother, and it wasn't our conservative friends.

I also remember who made our family miserable for loving and caring for my gay brother as he died of AIDS, and it wasn't our liberal friends.

( http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything... for an excellent essay on the topic. )

Re: My Family’s Slave

#362

Most of the guys I went to engineering school with were Indians (Brahmins), and they'd frequently mention how the jobs here paid more, but they still wanted to go back to India because they'd have to treat their servants "differently" here. I just assumed it was a payroll issue. Perhaps I assumed wrongly.

There is a saying : “To the privileged, equality feels like oppression.”

If you already belong to a community in a geo-location which holds and controls entry to key places in every walk of life. It makes zero sense to migrate to a different place and stand in the queue like a plebeian.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#363
post #188

Here in HK I sponsor the visa of a Domestic Helper from the Philippines. Her situation is obviously better that Lola but the cards are really stacked against them. They are literally second-class citizens: their visa doesn't entitle them to any hope of becoming full-time residents, regardless of how many decades of their life they spent in the service of others. The whole Domestic Helper's contact is a sham: there is…

Weird question, but why do you still do it if you feel they are second-class citizens? What's the general local attitude towards domestic helpers.

I've been to HK and I was personally shocked at my local acquaintance's attitude towards them (negative). At a philosophical level, this is a form of slavery/racism/caste system. At a pragmatic level, nobody in HK wants to do their work, people in the Philippines need the income, and most situations are mutually beneficial. So why not?

Re: My Family’s Slave

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women actually control the majority of discretionary spending, and not because they make more money. The fact that there is no contract does not mean the work is not compensated.

Cite? I'd be very interested to read your sources.

Google for 'women control majority spending'. I'm not being snide- it is important to see how widely covered this is. You will find dozens of legitimate articles and papers discussing it. It isn't a controversial fact at all.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#365
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you go searching for meaning, chase all the leads, trying to separate wrong from right. What you find is that beyond all the pop culture tropes, the outrage and terror about the latest and greatest paedophile revelation, evil greedy capitalists banker stories, murderous terrorists and backstabbing trophy wives and all the other stories about 'true monsters'. You'll find that all the monsters are just humans. Jus…

There are good people and bad people. There are monsters and humans even if monsters may have human shape and form. There is good and there is evil. One evil act does not absolve another. Goodness lives forever and evil does not die either

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956

Jordan Peterson talks about how one of the most important things you can do to become a well-formed person in terms of moral reasoning is to realize that you're a Nazi. You're a concentration camp guard. You'd do it, by choice. It takes a lot of discussion and examples and thought to get to the point where this is really understood, but it's true and it's important.

I'd say the main thing that convinced me is that I realized that there are people I'd like to see suffer. Not because it'd lead to some external outcome, but just because I want them to suffer. You can see this every day in politics too. People who want to hurt just for the joy of hurting. You can hear it in their voices when they knock people down at a protest and hurl dehumanizing snarl terms at them.

And this is present on every 'side'. The only possible difference is in how much each side embraces this impulse.

Once this is understood - that people aren't divided into good and evil groups, but rather that every person is both good and evil - a lot of questions and problems look quite different from the common "good people vs evil people" frame. A lot of policies and historical judgments start to look pretty dumb.

And, in fact, the idea that some people are evil is a foundation of evil acts. The false belief that someone is pure evil is what gives you the excuse to feel good about making them suffer.

It's ironic that wrong beliefs about the shape of evil in the world are themselves a foundation for evil.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#366
post #51

Great read! Many Asian countries have the concept of live-in housekeepers. I think the 'best' (scraping the bottom, here) arrangement is in Singapore, where the government, laws, and law-enforcement ensure that immigrant live-in housekeepers are treated fairly- kinda like au pairs, etc. in the US. I knew someone in India who brought their live-in maid's sister to the US in some capacity (and AFAIK, paid her wages- sh…

> Many Asian countries have the concept of live-in housekeepers. As educated as the HN crowd is, I'm surprised so many people are susceptible to stereotypes. Perhaps because most people on HN are rather wealthy and well off, when they visit Asia they hang around other rich Asians. So yes, among rich Asians, the idea of a live-in caretaker maybe common, but they are the minority. This would be like some rich Asian peo…

As others have mentioned, it actually is quite common. Part of the reason is that the going rate for hiring any sort of unskilled labor is much lower in Southeast Asia and South Asia, compared to North America. (Another way to say this is that income inequality is greater.) So if you're "middle class" in South/Southeast Asia, you're more likely to be able to afford a domestic helper than if you're "middle class" here (where you could only afford to hire your own domestic help, say a babysitter or a nanny or a maid or a food delivery guy, for only a small portion of your time) simply because of the wage differences.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we could as a society pay (women) people for emotional labor They already get paid for emotional labor with emotional reward. >we could choose to economically value teachers and nurses instead of economically devaluing "feminine" roles Maybe you could stop being sexist and calling things like education and nursing "feminine." >in order to end professional segregation If you can point out actual instances of sexism i…

> They already get paid for emotional labor with emotional reward. Great, so they can just pay the rent with emotional reward then. > Maybe you could stop being sexist and calling things like education and nursing "feminine." Clearly these occupations have a larger percentage than average of female workers, they're associated with women, and probably not coincidentally, they also have low pay and low prestige. I don'…

>Great, so they can just pay the rent with emotional reward then.

Keeping with gender roles... should we pay men to mow their own lawn? Of course not, people cut the lawn themselves to save money when compared to hiring a lawn service. Every dollar a family doesn't spend on lawn service or daycare is a dollar that can be spent on food or shelter. We do put an economic value on the domestic work that women do and every family I've ever known has seen it exactly that way.

>Clearly these occupations have a larger percentage than average of female workers, they're associated with women, and probably not coincidentally, they also have low pay and low prestige.

I feel like you just have a complete lack of understanding of how market value for skills and labor is determined. Picking crops is a field of work that has a larger percentage than average of male workers, it's associated with men, and probably not coincidentally, it also has low pay and low prestige. See how silly that sounds? The only thing that matters is whether or not women are intentionally being kept out of fields they're qualified for. Find specific instances of sexism, let's go get them! If salaries of teachers are too low it's only because there are too many qualified people in the market willing to perform that labor.

>I don't know why it's the "enlightened" move to stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that's not the case.

The fact of the matter is that sexism has a real economic cost. If it's true that women are underpaid then hiring men comes at a premium. If it's true that women are being undervalued in the market then certainly there's at least ONE business owner who can hire up all these women and take over any given market because they can keep all that extra profit, right?

Look, I'm not saying there's no such thing as sexism. I'm not even saying that there aren't likely many cases of sexism in employment. But we know rather scientifically that after a relatively low income level more money doesn't increase your happiness. Maybe women are wiser than men and choose career paths which afford them a better work life balance so they can spend their time doing other things that matter to them. Maybe being a top tier lawyer where a client can call you a 3am on Christmas morning and expect you to work for the next 12 hours because they have $100 million on the line is a shit way to live, and maybe we shouldn't be all that concerned that women tend to choose a different path in life.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#368
post #272

My family adopted my female cousin nearly 30 years ago from Guatemala. The country was in civil war at the time so bringing her to the U.S. was in her best interest. Unfortunately my mother and aunt (sisters of her birth father) kept her so locked down that she is effectively a slave. My aunt hasn't worked in decades because my little sister has always signed every paycheck over to my aunt. After working for nearly 2…

Rather than seeking counsel from HN, may I strongly recommend you find a practicing family and/or immigration lawyer if you really want to help? I commend your action of putting money away, but based on your description, your cousin has been/ is being subjected to familial abuse. Reach inside yourself and find the courage to inform someone. Seek help from those qualified to give it, please.

s/"Rather than"/"In addition to"

I agree with @edward_rolf's criticism of my original phrasing, the first sentence can be improved.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#370
post #188

Here in HK I sponsor the visa of a Domestic Helper from the Philippines. Her situation is obviously better that Lola but the cards are really stacked against them. They are literally second-class citizens: their visa doesn't entitle them to any hope of becoming full-time residents, regardless of how many decades of their life they spent in the service of others. The whole Domestic Helper's contact is a sham: there is…

It's one of those situations where it only feels horrifying because you're seeing it.

Assuming these helpers aren't being tricked into taking the work, they are choosing it. Which means that whatever alternatives they face in their homeland (and out of sight of the wealthy intelligentsia) are even worse.

What would be terrible is if this opportunity was cut off to assuage the consciences of the wealthy, whether by preventing these visas or by forcing minimum compensation up such that people demand fewer of them.

This is like building a wall around a starving village so you don't have to look at the suffering kids, and pretending you've solved the problem. You didn't solve their problem - you solved yours.

In truth the problem has to get solved in the home country of these workers, and most of that solution has to come from them. Foreigners can't descend on a stable society and improve it, they often make it worse.

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