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What was it like to self-learn programming before Stack Overflow? (2016)

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Re: What was it like to self-learn programming before Stack Overflow? (2016)

#131
Back in the day, we self-learned programming by buying a box of blank punch cards at the campus bookstore, waiting in line to use the keypunch machine, and then waiting in front of the printer bins for the line printer guy to roll up your output like a newspaper and deliver it. There was lots of down time for reading the manuals very carefully.

Re: What was it like to self-learn programming before Stack Overflow? (2016)

#133
post #54

it SUCKED. You really had to rtfm (and hope that the fm was good) or depend on google to find the right topic on a given forum (dreamincode, for ex) and hope that that topic didn't devolve into a shouting match over something that had NOTHING to do with your search query. it took much longer to get anything done. Writing code these days is SUPER easy. Write stuff, run or compile it, get an error, search Google for sa…

> Writing code these days is SUPER easy. Write stuff, run or compile it, get an error, search Google for said error, click on SO link, find answer, implement answer, move on with your life.

At the same time, language APIs have exploded. In 1998, you could literally memorize all of a language like ColdFusion. External libraries existed, but weren't as depended on like gems or node modules are today.

However, I think your statement is very true for certain classes of applications. For example, many Rails apps are very much gluing things together. Michael Hartl in his popular tutorial even describes "Googling the error" as an actual technique.

Re: What was it like to self-learn programming before Stack Overflow? (2016)

#135

In terms of using Stack Overflow to help you track down a problem? The answer, of course, is found in this relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/979/

The next worst is when there are only a handful of search results and the top one is a forum post with replies saying the answer is easily available, and the OP should have used Google first. The remaining results being archives of that first one.

No, the worst is when someone posts their bug and then others start asking questions or trying to figure it out, then the original poster says "thanks guys, I was actually able to figure it out". And doesn't post the solution!!! Just so infuriating.

Re: What was it like to self-learn programming before Stack Overflow? (2016)

#136
I started teaching myself HTML and CSS (and shortly after PHP) in high school, maybe around 2003 or so. At the time I had a computer in my room, but was not allowed to have internet access on it (a wise decision by my parents that I want to implement for my own children to the extent possible these days).

My method of learning was to save web pages to a USB flash drive on an internet-connected computer, and study them, or copy them, or modify them on my computer until I understood and was able to create my own documents. Learning PHP was a similar exercise, augmented by a downloaded copy of PHP's documentation manual.

Stackoverflow definitely made answering questions much quicker, but I also think that it made it so easy to quickly get things working that I lost the practice of having to understand and fix things through deep study.

Re: What was it like to self-learn programming before Stack Overflow? (2016)

#137
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are right - SO is a better version, but the majority of impact came from having the information globally searchable at all. Heck, even searchable USENET indices had a huge impact, pre Web. And SO still suffers from the same basic problems they all had - "good" answers get stale, information tends to clusters around simple/beginner problems, etc.

There were programmer sites/mailing lists before that where knowledgeable people gathered, and today you can search directly on SO, or use DDG as I do. Also, I used AltaVista before google, and often got answers there, though success was less frequent. Therefore, at no point in time have I been dependent on google, though it was helpful about five to ten years ago. So, my impression is that SO was the bigger innovati…

I hate to think what it would mean to be dependent on SO.

I think overall we are agreeing. USENET and various sites were a huge jump from the state of things before hand, when your available resources really depended on location. SO is a more useful interface on top of that stuff and easier to access, but the real innovation was made decades earlier.

Re: What was it like to self-learn programming before Stack Overflow? (2016)

#138
I was lucky. Our high school system shared a DEC PDP-8. This was in 1974. Each year, Digital equipment would publish a manual. Some years were better than others. Somewhat like a vintage wine. The choice of languages for the PDP-8 were Basic, Fortran, and Focal. It also had a user group called Decus, which shared code - somewhat akin to GitHub. But, I didn't use much of that code, as it usually meant hand entering the source into a teletype. The storage medium was paper tape.

An alternative to the PDP-8 was the one class in writing Cobol on a mainframe. You had to hand write code on a huge ledger sheet, translate that into punched cards, submit a job, and wait a couple days for the result. Most of my coder buddies thought that was a joke.

Instead we stuck with PDP-8. Because the computer was shared by several schools, there was a huge inter-school rivalry. We would hack accounts, and write incendiary messages in the other school's directory, which could only be erased by writing assembly code.

When I went to university, the first computer science courses still used punched cards. The classes were incredibly boring: with PL-1 examples of how to move pieces around a chess board. No AI. In high school, we were already writing chess player programs, multi-user star wars, compression, social engineering, and infinite precision math packages.

So, I was a bit judgmental about the quality of the University courses and missed out on some important lessons. My first language was Basic. So, my code was a meandering mess of spaghetti. It took a years to unlearn that self-inflicted pedagogical brain damage.

Now, with SO + Git, coding feels like assembling flat-packed Ikea furniture.

[UPDATE] grammar

Re: What was it like to self-learn programming before Stack Overflow? (2016)

#139
Our high school got some TRS80s in 1978 (+/- 1 year) for the CS class. I wasn't taking that class, but I borrowed the TRS80 Basic manual and read it in an hour while I was supposed to be paying attention in calculus class. After that, I could just go into the CS room after school and try stuff.

Re: What was it like to self-learn programming before Stack Overflow? (2016)

#140
Manuals. Compilers came with comprehensive manuals. When you paid for things like Turbo C++ or Paradox or MS Cobol you got a well edited, indexed and quality printed book that covered the entire language and tools comprehensively. From there you wade into existing code bases, learn by maintaining the work of others, and eventually you originate new work. Along the way you dog-eared the manuals.

The Internet has obviated the need for comprehensive books for the bulk of contemporary programming. I suppose there are obscure enough and/or proprietary platforms that still follow the "comprehensive documentation" approach, but it seems it's possible for widely used tooling to be poorly documented and rely on online forums to fill in the gaps with crowd sourced answers and examples. This makes "mind share" crucial to the usability of a language/platform.

I am sometimes frustrated with the contemporary model, but the old way wasn't a panacea either; just broken differently. If you want a good taste of "what it was like" find the manuals for Turbo C++ 3.0 (1991.) You'll learn things about C/C++ that you've never seen written down anywhere.

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