Live data from Hacker News

How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

nytimes.com

171–180 of 188 posts

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#171
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not Australian, but I went back and looked at it again and I can't see any possible way to interpret it that isn't racist. Perhaps you could fill me in?

You realize that you are implying that any negative cartoon with a black person in it is automatically racism. That's why flukus said "it's your own bias that makes you think it is". If you weren't biased you would just see people being criticized.

> You realize that you are implying that any negative cartoon with a black person in it is automatically racism.

No. If this was a comic strip telling a story about a deadbeat father who happened to be black, that would be one thing. But it's a political cartoon. The entire point of the medium is to make broad points using clearly-understood imagery. If a political cartoonist draws a caricature of a black man (big red lips and all), it's either representing a specific public figure, or black people in general (aboriginals, in this case).

So unless you're arguing that the father is a caricature of a specific person who was in the news at the time, there is no way it's not supposed to represent all aboriginals.

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#172
post #154
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, what an intriguing level of detail to draw from the cartoon, I have to admit I never read even the slightest amount of that from it. To me the cartoon is staggeringly racist. Clearly, deliberately, outrageously racist. And I am deliberate in my use of the words "deliberate" and "outrageous" because personally I believe in Australia that the proprietor of this particular newspaper makes his money by manufactur…

The reality of life in Australia is that, if you are Aboriginal, you are vastly more likely to be abused as a child, you will die on average a decade earlier than the rest of the country, and as far as anyone can tell, much the same will be true for your children - life could be a little better for them, because the gaps seem to be narrowing, but they aren't narrowing fast enough to reach parity before those children…

I find it interesting that you choose to go into fine detail, again, about the facts of life and social problems in the Northern Territory as you understand them and to share your own personal anecdotes, as if these have some impact on the cartoon been grotesquely racist (or not).

Please understand that even as a johnny-foreigner I'm perfectly well aware of the state of affairs in the NT. You'll note that your not the only Australian that reacts to this cartoon by earnestly explaining their understanding of the social problems of indigenous communities (though the other responding to me is also perfectly comfortable stating the cartoon is racist, but strangely chooses to respond to me, rather than any of the comments claiming the cartoon is not racist, go figure).

I'll posit that everything you mention, to some degree, is common knowledge in Australia. I don't accept that Bill Leak was genuinely trying to play an informative role here. We are also plainly ignoring the fact that this cartoon came in response to reports of aboriginal children being tear-gassed in Don Dale, so it's obviously an attempt to re-apportion blame, no?

If you'll humour me one more time. Imagine that the police-officer is out of frame, just a hand. Can you suggest anything that would make the cartoon of the two remaining aboriginal men racist? Let me help you, perhaps you could exaggerate some physical features, or include some negative stereotype? Has the author missed anything? What would you add to change their representation to be a racist one? It's fascinating that your only suggestion to turn the original cartoon from "not racist" to "blatantly racist" is the ethnicity of one character. Is it true (and it's hard I guess not to deliver this without the tone of an insult, so apologies) that you're perfectly aware that the caricature of the two remaining characters is deeply, deeply racist, it's just that you're comfortable with all the stereotypes they contain? It is racist, but it's ok, in short.

In case you're considering explaining further fine details about aboriginal life, let's say the cartoon was of three greedy hook-nosed sinister jew bankers. I've put literally every trope in I can, exaggerated every physical characteristic, every negative stereotype. Would that cartoon become not-racist because there's some element of truth the idea that Jewish people are a merchant class? And would your time be spent well explaining that to me in fine detail?

Thanks again for the conversation, this has been a fine example in my experience of discussing racial issues with Australians.

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#173
post #172
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality of life in Australia is that, if you are Aboriginal, you are vastly more likely to be abused as a child, you will die on average a decade earlier than the rest of the country, and as far as anyone can tell, much the same will be true for your children - life could be a little better for them, because the gaps seem to be narrowing, but they aren't narrowing fast enough to reach parity before those children…

I find it interesting that you choose to go into fine detail, again, about the facts of life and social problems in the Northern Territory as you understand them and to share your own personal anecdotes, as if these have some impact on the cartoon been grotesquely racist (or not). Please understand that even as a johnny-foreigner I'm perfectly well aware of the state of affairs in the NT. You'll note that your not th…

In the case of Jewish stereotypes, consider two fictional cartoonists in 1938. One is in Nazi Germany, and uses the most stereotypical Jewish caricature possible sitting on a train next to a pile of gold bars, to justify confiscating the possessions of Jewish emigrants. The other is in Britain, and uses the exact same stereotypes and the exact same caricature of a Jewish man, this time standing in front of a locked door and menaced by a dog with Hitler's face, to shame the British government over its pitiful intake of refugees. The first is an attack on the Jewish people. The second is an attempt to help them, and I believe a cartoonist would be justified in having drawn it.

Which role did Bill Leak try to play? I believe he bungled an attempt to get the rest of Australia to talk about and fix a problem, but I'm open to the idea that he may have been throwing bigotry around blindly, or trying to shift blame with no intention of doing any good.

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#174
post #169
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the place to comment on the article about how political incompetency hobbled Australia's broadband, right? I understand if you are Australian and find the criticism uncomfortable, but it's a fair reflection of my experience. My intent wasn't to suggest X is better than Australia, rather to inform the readership of HN that the political paralysis and ineptitude in this country is in no way limited to a single…

Right, and I get that your intention was positive, but "basket case...shit...crap" doesn't count as "inform", and it's only by chance that you didn't provoke aggrieved responses, a.k.a. flamewars. The thread went far off-topic as it was.

I'm sorry to inform you that the internet is not an anodyne safe-place. Consider your emotional reaction and continued need to engage, down this off-topic path.

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#175
post #174
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and I get that your intention was positive, but "basket case...shit...crap" doesn't count as "inform", and it's only by chance that you didn't provoke aggrieved responses, a.k.a. flamewars. The thread went far off-topic as it was.

I'm sorry to inform you that the internet is not an anodyne safe-place. Consider your emotional reaction and continued need to engage, down this off-topic path.

Um, dang is one of the moderators here. Trying to shut town off-topic rants that lead to flamewars is part of his job. He's engaging because he's trying to educate you on how people are expected to behave on HN. (And it's good that he tries, rather than just banning you. And it's good that he keeps calling out and shutting down garbage; HN is trying to hold on as a place where you can have an intelligent conversation rather than drowning in insanity.)

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#176
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry to inform you that the internet is not an anodyne safe-place. Consider your emotional reaction and continued need to engage, down this off-topic path.

Um, dang is one of the moderators here. Trying to shut town off-topic rants that lead to flamewars is part of his job. He's engaging because he's trying to educate you on how people are expected to behave on HN. (And it's good that he tries, rather than just banning you. And it's good that he keeps calling out and shutting down garbage; HN is trying to hold on as a place where you can have an intelligent conversation…

If he's a moderator, he can shut this thread down if he likes.

In my opinion my experience adds some context. On reflection I'd be happy to change 'crap' for terrible and so on, but I can't edit that (historical time-out I guess).

Now, if you'll excuse me, my comment has actually spawned a really interesting, intelligent conversation with an Australian about the conduct of the main protagonist of this article, and I don't have any more commentary to add on this point.

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#177
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not Australian, but I went back and looked at it again and I can't see any possible way to interpret it that isn't racist. Perhaps you could fill me in?

It's about remote aboriginal communities that have problems like this, not aborigines as a whole. Note that the cop is also an aborignal he's probably the type that is fed up with dealing with this shit. I'd say the people that think it's racist are the racist ones, all they see is the skin color. They'd think it was a funny joke (or at least be indifferent) about rednecks of the characters were white, but lost their…

[deleted]

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#178
post #173
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it interesting that you choose to go into fine detail, again, about the facts of life and social problems in the Northern Territory as you understand them and to share your own personal anecdotes, as if these have some impact on the cartoon been grotesquely racist (or not). Please understand that even as a johnny-foreigner I'm perfectly well aware of the state of affairs in the NT. You'll note that your not th…

In the case of Jewish stereotypes, consider two fictional cartoonists in 1938. One is in Nazi Germany, and uses the most stereotypical Jewish caricature possible sitting on a train next to a pile of gold bars, to justify confiscating the possessions of Jewish emigrants. The other is in Britain, and uses the exact same stereotypes and the exact same caricature of a Jewish man, this time standing in front of a locked d…

I appreciate the contrast you are drawing with that comparison, it's a clever one.

It seems that we agree that, in isolation, the caricature of two bare-footed, slack-jawed, slovenly, drunk, ignorant, impoverished indigenous Australians is racist. At least neither of us can think of anything we would add to exacerbate it.

In my example of the hook-nosed Jew, the Jew is the hate-figure. In your counter-example Hitler is the hate figure.

Who is the hate figure in this cartoon? The racist generalisation of the indigenous man. Surely that's problematic?

You're aware that the cartoon was posted in a paper that has history of writing articles titled "Blacks find ways to get high", the cartoonist has a library of similar content where the hate-figure is indigenous, and that this particular cartoon was aimed (and succeeded comfortably) to shift attention from the case of indigenous children being tear gassed.

I'm comfortable that it is racist dross, I'm hoping that I've managed to at least raise that thought with you in a compelling way.

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#179
post #155
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact we don't have a Bill of Rights (or even an equivalent to the First Amendment) is ridiculous. But on the plus side we stopped with the ridiculous gun-toting crap 20 years ago, so some parts of our constitution are more reasonable than other countries. One of the more worrying issues is that the Governor-General (and thus by proxy the Queen of fucking England) has vito power over our laws.

We don't need a bill of rights. I have never had anyone give me a convincing argument on why a bill of rights is needed. Also, its veto, not vito and the Governor General's reserve powers are a check on the Government. In the history of the Commonwealth of Australia these powers have been used twice: 1) On 13 May 1932, when the Governor of New South Wales Sir Philip Game dismissed the Government of New South Wales. 2…

> We don't need a bill of rights. I have never had anyone give me a convincing argument on why a bill of rights is needed.

We don't have any legal (let alone constitutional) right to freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and a few other freedoms that are present in the US bill of rights. There are some laws that provide protections for certain kinds of political speech, but those are incredibly narrow compared to the First Amendment in the US. In fact the only people in Australia who have freedom of speech (even surpassing the US because libel laws don't apply to them) is politicians in the House of Reps and Senate -- ordinary citizens don't have those freedoms.

> I really wish they would teach better civics in schools.

To be frank we have more serious issues in our school system.

Re: How Australia Bungled Its $36B High-Speed Internet Rollout

#180
post #89

Australian here. I was recently forced from my ADSL2+ service over to the shiny new HFC system. My quality actually degraded - although my bandwidth increased, my latency is off the charts, especially in peak time. I contacted my ISP to see if I could go back to my ADSL2+ service and they flat out said no. The future is bleak.

Which ISP and where is the latency though? It could be that your ISP has congestion on NBN but not on ADSL2+? Not necessarily the NBN's fault.

This is true, but cable networks tend to degrade because of the way bandwidth is shared compared to DSL connections, and actually gets worse with higher adoption rates. It has to do with where the connection is actually multiplexed.

Check out the section 'Shared Bandwidth' on wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_Internet_access

Check out this comparison: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/tech-tips/compare-cable-dsl/pcmc...

And check out the post by Net_Sharing in this forum: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r28980221-Speed-Does-cable-b...

Post reply on HN