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U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

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Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#91
Flying is already such a dreadful thing. Even a one hour flight takes 5-7 hours when you count in all the extras. In my experience, a 1 hour flight like London - Brussels, is not much faster than a 7 hour flight like London - New York. Airports are a text book study in what monopoly and fear mongering politicians do.

- On the day of the flight you go from your departure city to the airport somewhere far away in the outskirts. That's easily an hour, in places like New York or London it can be significantly more.

- Depending on whether it's a domestic flight or an intercontinental flight, and depending on the airline, you are asked to show up anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours before the flight.

- In the airport, you sometimes go through four or five or six lines where you are checked; There is a check in, might be baggage drop, there is security, passport check by, check at the the gate, and sometimes even again when entering the airport.

Once you are through security you are forced to spend time in what is basically an overpriced shopping mall but dragging around your coat and carry-on.

If you fly with a budget airline, or if you fly to America, you are often forced to wait in crowded waiting areas at the gate, usually without seating for everyone.

Sometimes you are stuffed in a bus that takes you from the gate to the plane. These busses are literally stuffed like a Japanese metro.

On the plane, you often wait in your chair before takeoff because a connecting flight with passengers has not arrived on time or because the runway is too full.

The flight itself is rarely comfortable, but that's the necessary part of the trip. Most flights could not be much faster than they are, except on long distance flights if supersonic planes were allowed.

At the arrival, you sometimes wait again at the tarmac.

Then you go through passport control again.

You warit for luggage.

And you need transportation from the airport into the destination city.

Upon arrival, you have spent what amounts to a full working day or more, even for short flights, and you are exhausted. If someone could take away all the assaults on passengers that the whole airport experience is packed with, flying would be much better, with or without your laptop.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#92
post #84
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So lets get this straight: 1. Discovering a terrorist plot to hide bombs inside carry on laptop batteries - and then not taking any precautions at all and allowing laptops on planes as normal: A prudent and smart thing to do. 2. Discovering a terrorist plot to hide bombs inside carry on laptop batteries - and then taking purdent, minimal precuations by asking people to deal with the minor inconvenience of checking th…

While I agree that the prior comment was condescending and not very helpful, I think the key arguments (already put forward elsewhere in this discussion) against the "they have good intel" argument still stand and so far have not been plausibly refuted: a) I would assume the U.S. would share such intelligence at least with their allies. So why has no other country except the U.K. implemented similar measures? Do they…

They have shared the intel with their allies and with the general public. If you guys want to get ahead to conspiracy theroies saying that is is fabricated then you need to explain why other stuff like the moon landing and vaccinations and global warming is not fabricated. You cant have it both ways where all the stuff you like is all true and all the stuff you dont is some kind of conspiracy

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-yemen-raid-idUSKBN15I2...

>Why only flights from certain countries (until now Middle East, starting now apparently also Europe)? Don't you think a plane bomber from the Middle East would just put their bomb-infused laptop into the cargo hold, fly to the U.S. and then take it out there and into carry-on on a domestic flight?

Because its not designed to be a perfect barrier against all conceivable terrorist attacks - such a system would be burdensome and crazy, that why we take precautions based on the risk posed by the targets.

Im sorry but the mere fact that you dont think the ban is implemented in a very effective way is not in itself evidence of conspiracy or fraud on the part of the government.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#93
post #75

The September 11 attacks were domestic US flights of US airlines. So why only target flights coming from Europe?

Honestly, I suspect this might be a convenient way to be able to spend more time breaking into the laptops of travelers without the travelers noticing.

Again, why not include domestic flights?

...

Actually I think this will be extended to domestic flights sooner rather than later.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#94
post #82
post #42

A lot of comments very critical on the ban. America has intel - and good intel from a raid - that shows that ISIS has the capability and intent to hide a bomb inside laptop batteries to blow up passenger planes containing lots of people. Don’t the American people have the right to take steps to protect themselves from this? This is a simple requirement that laptops be checked baggage and not carry on. That hardly see…

> America has intel - and good intel from a raid - that shows that ISIS has the capability and intent to hide a bomb inside laptop batteries to blow up passenger planes containing lots of people. Citation needed on that one. Also... Adding a timer to a laptop battery bomb so that it goes off in the storage department is... probably very easy?

>Citation needed on that one.

People need to read the article which talked about this

or other articles where the evidence was widely released to the general public and shared with everyone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-yemen-raid-idUSKBN15I2...

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#95
post #67
post #42

A lot of comments very critical on the ban. America has intel - and good intel from a raid - that shows that ISIS has the capability and intent to hide a bomb inside laptop batteries to blow up passenger planes containing lots of people. Don’t the American people have the right to take steps to protect themselves from this? This is a simple requirement that laptops be checked baggage and not carry on. That hardly see…

> people who are so self centered that they would demand that Americans risk the very real threat of deadly terrorist attacks (...) Europeans being self-centered? It's us not wanting to hand our computers to USA agencies, known to clone your harddrive and/or implant other crap on it. Agencies who can hold you indefinitely and are affiliated with other 3 letter agencies who do worse. ( See https://arstechnica.com/tech…

I dont think that Europeans are self centered, I think the people complaining about being required to check in their laptops to prevent likely terrorist attacks are being self centered in doing so.

The government cant clone or access your information just because you put it in storage rather than carry on.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#96

Any of you that follow Bruce Schneier might remember he has these "movie plot" contests, to come up with plausible threats which would incur another bit of security theatre. The winner in 2007 was a plot where water would have to be banned... https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/06/second_moviep...

TL;DR, take some sodium metal onto a plane, drop it in water. As one of the first comments said, it's not plausible:

> Not plausible. I've seen a half-pound of reagent-quality sodium dropped in a river. The sodium burned violently; the chunk shattered; the expanding gas launched broken bits out of the river, which landed back in the water and kept on burning. Nothing, however, with enough force to make me believe it would cause a full-on explosion.

> Further, sodium oxidizes in air; sodium metal fashioned into any innocuous item and exposed to air (as any innocuous metal item I can think of would be) would have reacted away a great deal of its mass in the air between packing and getting on a plane. There's a reason sodium is normally stored in kerosene or some other liquid it won't react with. Dropping oxidized sodium into water is a far less interesting reaction.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#97

No worries. For a few hundred dollars, I'm sure you'll be able to register as a certified patriotic laptop carrier. Everything will go back to normal and the airline will get to collect yet another fee for something we used to get for free. And we're totally safer from terrorists as a result.

Don't forget about the extra revenue for the airlines from selling more movies on seatback displays.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#98
post #90
post #42

A lot of comments very critical on the ban. America has intel - and good intel from a raid - that shows that ISIS has the capability and intent to hide a bomb inside laptop batteries to blow up passenger planes containing lots of people. Don’t the American people have the right to take steps to protect themselves from this? This is a simple requirement that laptops be checked baggage and not carry on. That hardly see…

I think the core of the issue here is that at some point, the nuisance outweighs the risk. How long will this ban be in place? Until the terrorists forget how to make laptop bombs? In the meantime, how many hours of productive work is being lost? To put it another way, let's say the US got intelligence that terrorists now are able to make bombs out of, say, shoes. Should everyone be forced to remove their shoes befor…

Its not just ability to make bombs out of laptops, but also discovered plans to do so. If in our silly senario it came out that we did a raid on a terrorist hideout and found plans to hide bombs inside shoes to bomb planes, and that shoes are more suitable than other items to making these bombs and that terrorists had been perfecting shoe bombs - then yes it might be prudent to ask people to remove shoes during flights. You are right - its a balancing act between risk and precaution, in this case I dont think its unreasonable to ask people to check in laptops when we find terrorist plans to blow up planes with laptop bombs

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#99
post #4

That's a bit of a pain. I wonder why a laptop bomb would cause problems in the cabin but not in the cargo hold.

A bomb that size would be very unlikely to take down a plane (remember, blowing a hole in the fuselage doesn't cause people to fly out, despite what the movies show), so it seems the most likely use for it would be to try and blow open the door to the cockpit so they can take over the plane.

Regardless, though, it's incredibly stupid for the US to even consider this ban. The chances of success are extremely small compared to the headaches this will cause.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#100
I do wonder how many laptop bombs have endangered planes so far - vs. actual Li-ion battery fires.

Force laptops in the holds and watch planes crash when the inevitable battery fire happens. This policy will likely kill more people than the terrorist menace it is meant to protect against.

And that doesn't even consider the loss of business, because people simply won't fly without a laptop (or put it in the hold - considering how checked baggage is routinely treated). Not everyone is traveling for leisure and for business people a laptop is essential.

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