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U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

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Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#81

Post by arghwhat »

RangerScience wrote: post #52

One of the advantageous to living in California is that when I go overseas, I can tell people I'm Californian, rather than American. Because people's ideas of CA is 1) LA/Hollywood, 2) SF/SV, 3) Yosemite / Tahoe, you get a pretty different response.

If you told me you were "Californian", I would give you a really weird stare, think for a moment, and then reply with "Oh, American?", while wondering if you thought California was a country.

And even then, very few will know the cultural difference between, say, California and Tennessee or Alabama. Just like an American might think of China as one thing with one culture, we generally view USA as one thing with one culture.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#82

Post by jabot »

vivekd wrote: post #42

A lot of comments very critical on the ban. America has intel - and good intel from a raid - that shows that ISIS has the capability and intent to hide a bomb inside laptop batteries to blow up passenger planes containing lots of people. Don’t the American people have the right to take steps to protect themselves from this? This is a simple requirement that laptops be checked baggage and not carry on. That hardly see…

> America has intel - and good intel from a raid - that shows that ISIS has the capability and intent to hide a bomb inside laptop batteries to blow up passenger planes containing lots of people.

Citation needed on that one.

Also... Adding a timer to a laptop battery bomb so that it goes off in the storage department is... probably very easy?

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#83

Post by pluma »

openplatypus wrote: post #57
frisco wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The airlines enforce it, who must if they want to keep being allowed to operate flights to the US.

Yet they also operate under EU law so it would be enough to make this practice illegal. I am afraid that EU goverments will bow to US rules. Or maybe this will be the final straw?

The US could deny airlines which don't implement the ban entry into US airspace. The US could also forbid them from landing in the US. The US could also raid the planes after landing or arrest anyone carrying a laptop bag that wasn't checked in as luggage. The US could do any of these things and there would be nothing the EU could do about it because they all would happen outside EU jurisdiction.

As a European citizen I'm not sure what you believe the EU could practically do to prevent such a ban as long as it is only about flights into the US or within the US. It's literally none of our business.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#84

Post by ar0 »

vivekd wrote: post #50
throwaway31445 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh dear god. Stop making me cringe.

So lets get this straight: 1. Discovering a terrorist plot to hide bombs inside carry on laptop batteries - and then not taking any precautions at all and allowing laptops on planes as normal: A prudent and smart thing to do. 2. Discovering a terrorist plot to hide bombs inside carry on laptop batteries - and then taking purdent, minimal precuations by asking people to deal with the minor inconvenience of checking th…

While I agree that the prior comment was condescending and not very helpful, I think the key arguments (already put forward elsewhere in this discussion) against the "they have good intel" argument still stand and so far have not been plausibly refuted:

a) I would assume the U.S. would share such intelligence at least with their allies. So why has no other country except the U.K. implemented similar measures? Do they all willingly risk their citizens lives?

b) Why only flights from certain countries (until now Middle East, starting now apparently also Europe)? Don't you think a plane bomber from the Middle East would just put their bomb-infused laptop into the cargo hold, fly to the U.S. and then take it out there and into carry-on on a domestic flight?

The counterargument to b) is that the countries on the ban list have lower carry-on security measures in place than the countries not on the list. I personally would doubt this, especially given the variety of countries not affected by the ban, but I don't have hard data on that.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#85

Post by agumonkey »

> Laptops and tablets denied access to the cabin and added to checked baggage means that devices with a history of lithium-ion battery fires could set off a deadly conflagration in a cargo hold — where no one can put out the fires.

Very funny.

We get the message "Europe is a terrorist breeding soil".

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#86

Post by orf »

vivekd wrote: post #66
Oletros wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you should be angry that laptops are banned from only flights from some countries, isn't? Or do you think that terrorists are naive and won't use other airlines and origin airports? Or perhaps that intel is just bullshit just to implant those measures

>intel is just bullshit just to implant those measures If you are going to assume without evidence and offhand that everything the American government says is bullshit, you might as well go ahead and join the terrorists because you seem to believe that we support and work for an evil, manipulative and deceptive regime. I am going to believe what the US government says about the raids until there is evidence to the co…

> because you seem to believe that we support and work for an evil, manipulative and deceptive regime.

Oh boy, what planet are you on? Evil is subjective, but manipulative and deceptive? absolutely.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#87

Post by Oletros »

vivekd wrote: post #66
Oletros wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you should be angry that laptops are banned from only flights from some countries, isn't? Or do you think that terrorists are naive and won't use other airlines and origin airports? Or perhaps that intel is just bullshit just to implant those measures

>intel is just bullshit just to implant those measures If you are going to assume without evidence and offhand that everything the American government says is bullshit, you might as well go ahead and join the terrorists because you seem to believe that we support and work for an evil, manipulative and deceptive regime. I am going to believe what the US government says about the raids until there is evidence to the co…

> Maybe they are just applying greater precautions to areas deemed high risk for attacks

Yes, sure, EU countries are the biggest risk areas in the world.

11/s airplane attacks were from EU or Middle East countries, weren't?

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#88

Post by pjc50 »

vivekd wrote: post #50
throwaway31445 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh dear god. Stop making me cringe.

So lets get this straight: 1. Discovering a terrorist plot to hide bombs inside carry on laptop batteries - and then not taking any precautions at all and allowing laptops on planes as normal: A prudent and smart thing to do. 2. Discovering a terrorist plot to hide bombs inside carry on laptop batteries - and then taking purdent, minimal precuations by asking people to deal with the minor inconvenience of checking th…

We had this before with the "binary bombs" and the "shoe bombs", each of which turns into a permanent ban. We already have explosives sensors at airport security queues.

Every time the subject is discussed every thread suggests a whole new bunch of obvious ways to smuggle things onto planes, or otherwise commit acts of sabotage. Not to mention that the terrorists seem to have adapted to the simple, hard to stop plan of driving trucks into crowds.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#89

Post by r00fus »

pluma wrote: post #72
ohthehugemanate wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point it's not about the current administration, it's about the trend line over 3 administrations. In choosing to do business in the US, I'm introducing a dependency that will last for several years at least. For my own work I've had a preference for non-US clients for several years now.

The most shocking thing to me personally is that Americans seem to think these developments are new, radical changes to the course of American policies. I wonder how many of these things would have been possible without all the groundwork laid since 2001 (e.g. the Sept 2001 changes allowing the POTUS to call military strikes without Congress approval, the PATRIOT Act enabling mass surveillance, the ridiculous growth…

That's been building for 50 years. Lookup the "Project for a New American Century"... and that's from the nineties.

At the backbone of all of this is the military Industrial complex and security complexes that defeat any sane measure to remove their stranglehold over political discourse.

Re: U.S. To Ban Laptops in All Cabins of Flights from Europe

#90

Post by schtitt »

vivekd wrote: post #42

A lot of comments very critical on the ban. America has intel - and good intel from a raid - that shows that ISIS has the capability and intent to hide a bomb inside laptop batteries to blow up passenger planes containing lots of people. Don’t the American people have the right to take steps to protect themselves from this? This is a simple requirement that laptops be checked baggage and not carry on. That hardly see…

I think the core of the issue here is that at some point, the nuisance outweighs the risk. How long will this ban be in place? Until the terrorists forget how to make laptop bombs? In the meantime, how many hours of productive work is being lost?

To put it another way, let's say the US got intelligence that terrorists now are able to make bombs out of, say, shoes. Should everyone be forced to remove their shoes before boarding? A silly and contrived example, to be sure, but it is meant to illustrate a point: Where do we draw the line between safety and inconvenience?

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