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How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

nytimes.com

151–160 of 222 posts

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#151

Removing the MID would make middle-to-upper-middle-class people poorer, and so reduce inequality that way, but would it help poor people at all? The net monthly cost of housing would stay the same, just shift the proportion of your payment that goes to the government vs the bank. It's true that it's regressive, but I'm skeptical that's a huge factor. I think it would just help landlords, who would retain the ability…

> "it was a huge windfall to whomever owned property when it was introduced"

It is my understanding that all interest used to be tax deductible and college and home mortgage are the last ones remaining.

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#152

Removing the MID would make middle-to-upper-middle-class people poorer, and so reduce inequality that way, but would it help poor people at all? The net monthly cost of housing would stay the same, just shift the proportion of your payment that goes to the government vs the bank. It's true that it's regressive, but I'm skeptical that's a huge factor. I think it would just help landlords, who would retain the ability…

The proposal I have seen elsewhere is to replace the mortgage interest deduction with a refundable tax credit capped at some fraction (perhaps 40%) of the median housing cost. That way it would be equally valuable to the rich and poor, and would not encourage people to take out high-interest mortgages. It would still be a distorting force pushing housing prices up, but it could be phased out gradually (perhaps over 30 years) if necessary.

I also very much agree with your point that the main cause of high housing costs in the US are poor planning and zoning.

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#153
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just personally disapprove of 401ks. For one, I remember the Great Recession. They bailed out the banks and left the little guy/gal to ruin. Contemporaneously, all those fancy market valuations stink of an economy about to tank, again. I value investing in stocks/bonds, but in current conditions I would not trust a 401k investment broker.

> For one, I remember the Great Recession. They bailed out the banks and left the little guy/gal to ruin. What do you mean by the "little guy/gal"? It's true that the 2008 financial crisis only resulted in one banker going to jail, and he was not an executive. It's also true that the crisis only resulted in one bank getting indicted for criminal charges, and it was a small family-run bank in Chinatown with a stellar…

They bailed out the financial entities with failing mortgage backed securities. They didn't bail out the people owing a mortgage. They could have made a mass restructuring program but instead left all those people to ruin. It's a point against the system in total and not just a 401k. You have to have a huge amount of trust in many people to say you won't touch your 401k money for 20+ years. If you can't trust the stock market how can you sign off on a 401k.

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#154

So this article advocates for the removal of the mortgage interest tax deduction, because subsidizing home ownership leads to a larger economic divide between owners and renters. As a renter, I appreciate the intent, and I also appreciate any measure to simplify the tax code. That said, I also see compelling arguments in the deduction's favor. The sad truth is that most Americans are terrible at saving and in very po…

I would actually argue for an opposing viewpoint. Rather than eliminate the mortgage interest tax deduction, allow the interest on all debts, and rents, to be deductible. If you really need to tax that money twice, raise the tax rate on incomes earned from interest and rent.

The problem, as I see it, is FNMA and FDMC. Those entities, whose purpose was to ensure that a market for residential mortgages would exist, is now actually just engines for inflating housing prices and commoditizing low-risk real estate investment. They are the means by which an investor may become an absentee landlord without assuming any of the normal responsibilities of property management. Ordinary people volunteer to maintain and improve the investment properties, because they are offered the illusion of ownership.

A wise and shrewd financial plan can certainly make the mortgage system work in one's favor, to produce genuine ownership, but for the most part, it has done little more than create another class of resident somewhere between owner and renter: the mortgage-payer.

Having been both renter and mortgage-payer, and having seen some of the ugly hidden details of the US housing market, I do not recommend that anyone in the US software industry actually choose live in a mortgaged home except in the following places: New York City, Chicago, Washington DC, Austin, Seattle, Boston, Portland, Phoenix, Denver. (California properties near LA and SF are simply too overvalued, in my opinion.) Nowhere else has a sufficiently dense industry to ensure that one can work an entire career in the same place without sacrificing higher regular pay as an alternative to moving.

I would still like to actually own my own home one day, but as parent poster mentioned, I have done the math, and determined that I would be better off renting and saving, rather than borrowing and paying. And one of the major reasons why is that I have little sense of certainty with respect to where I will be living in five years, and that is roughly the absolute minimum timespan required before taking a mortgage can become less expensive for me than renting. Another is that any event likely to force me to move to find work is also likely to depress local property values. I would prefer to park my net worth in an asset that rises in value when people like me lose their jobs, and in assets that I am not forced to sell when I move, lest they become a financial burden. The money I save can be used to buy a retirement home, after I am done worrying about the consequences of place involved in moving around or staying put.

The problem with that mass-market forced-savings program is that dumping all your retirement funds into just one depreciating asset is just a horrible way to retain value. The only reason it works at all is because it forces people to literally sit on their nest egg. They must be aware and cognizant of everything happening to it, and actively defend against any threats to it. It forces people to be active investors in a market they are familiar with, because they live in their own neighborhoods.

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#155
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a massive bet on a local employment market in an increasingly volatile economy. It's not an unalloyed good incentive.

What about the inevitable growth in telecommuting? Surely owning a home with plenty of space for a semi-isolated home office would be a good thing?

This is an argument for buying a house in a low cost-of-living area with a high quality of life. Easy telecommuting will certainly not be kind to the home prices in concentrated metropolises that can only justify their property prices because of the existence of jobs that you can't find anywhere else. I should know -- the only reason I personally am in the Bay Area is because I couldn't make this much money anywhere else. Given the choice, I'd be working from a modest home on the beach somewhere in Mexico. :D

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#156
Removing the mortgage interest deduction is the third rail of politics. Until most people are renters, I realistically don't see it ever going away, and is one of the few major benefits widely available [1] to the middle class.

The US is still reeling from a strong racial divide, particularly in regards to homeownership. As stated in the article, banks would literally redline neighborhoods that weren't white enough as late as the 80s [2]. But it was worse than that, my parent's house (Built in the 40s) in the East Bay came with old covenant documentation stating that no POC were allowed to live in the home unless they were servants! Thats how bad it was in some areas as prosperous as the Bay Area, and we're still feeling its effects.

[1] https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/currenthvspress.pdf [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This falls apart pretty quickly when you think about the fact that the government would be forcing someone to sell something they own

Yes this is of course a regulatory burden and just a probably unrealistic solution. But the main problem remains, how can someone who is renting get at least some savings out of it?

>> forcing someone to sell something they own

> this is of course a regulatory burden

One person's mere "regulatory burden" might be another's "theft at gunpoint."

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#158
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just personally disapprove of 401ks. For one, I remember the Great Recession. They bailed out the banks and left the little guy/gal to ruin. Contemporaneously, all those fancy market valuations stink of an economy about to tank, again. I value investing in stocks/bonds, but in current conditions I would not trust a 401k investment broker.

> For one, I remember the Great Recession. They bailed out the banks and left the little guy/gal to ruin. What do you mean by the "little guy/gal"? It's true that the 2008 financial crisis only resulted in one banker going to jail, and he was not an executive. It's also true that the crisis only resulted in one bank getting indicted for criminal charges, and it was a small family-run bank in Chinatown with a stellar…

>bailed out the banks

In the 1930s, the bank stockholders were wiped out (equity set to zero), and they started over. In the 2008 crisis, bank stockholders were "bailed out". The value of their shares did not go to zero. The people who owned the bank before still owned it after. That is the difference between 401(k) accounts taking a 30% haircut and the bank stockholders retaining ownership of insolvent banks.

When the media talks about "too big to fail", they mean "too big to have stockholders wiped out and have the government recapitalize them". Supposedly it sounds too much like socialism. It is really regulatory capture at its finest.

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#159
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the inevitable growth in telecommuting? Surely owning a home with plenty of space for a semi-isolated home office would be a good thing?

This is an argument for buying a house in a low cost-of-living area with a high quality of life. Easy telecommuting will certainly not be kind to the home prices in concentrated metropolises that can only justify their property prices because of the existence of jobs that you can't find anywhere else. I should know -- the only reason I personally am in the Bay Area is because I couldn't make this much money anywhere…

Sounds you figured out the formula early. Did you get guidance or just saw it yourself?

Re: How Homeownership Became the Engine of American Inequality

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. If you pay $X in mortgage interest, you get $X * Y% back, where Y% is your incremental tax bracket. That is not a net win. It's just less of a loss.

if you put your money in something like crypto instead, you can come out ahead easily.

If you put your money in something like crypto (I presume you mean Bitcoin?) instead, and if it performs like you expect, you can come out ahead easily. But if you put your money in Mt Gox...
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