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Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

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Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#61

Post by jimktrains2 »

jfaucett wrote: post #16

Does anyone else find the internet market odd? Up until now net neutrality and other policies have given us the following: 1. Massive monopolies which essentially control 95% of all tech (google, facebook, amazon, microsoft, apple, etc) 2. An internet where every consumer assumes everything should be free. 3. An internet where there's only enough room for a handfull of players in each market globally i.e. if you have…

> 1. Massive monopolies which essentially control 95% of all tech (google, facebook, amazon, microsoft, apple, etc)

Many years ago your list wouldn't have included facebook, it would have included myspace. If FB was required to make a deal with every ISP in the US, do you think they would have been able to grow? Ditto for Google and Amazon.

> 2. An internet where every consumer assumes everything should be free.

I don't see how this is the fault of net neutrality. In fact, it's completely unrelated. We can have net neutrality and pay for content, many people do, viz Hulu, Netflix, iTunes Store, &c.

> 3. An internet where there's only enough room for a handfull of players in each market globally i.e. if you have a "project-management app" there will not be a successfull one for each country much less hundreds for each country.

I have no idea what you mean or how this is related.

> 4. Huge barriers of entry for any new player into many of the markets (no one can even begin competing with google search for less than 20 million).

It's easier to do that than it is to make a deal with every ISP in the US. I really have no idea how this isn't doublethink.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#62

Post by hobs »

grandalf wrote: post #48
stuartaxelowen wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I pay my ISP to serve the content I want, not the content they want.

> not the content they want This is FUD. Any ISP that decided to break the internet is going to fail. All they'd do is offer other services as alternatives to the big dollar ones like YouTube. A last mile ISP does two core things. It arbitrages bandwidth for residential usage patterns and it deals with the last mile communications link. Net Neutrality forces a very specific arbitrage strategy on ISPs that severely li…

ISPs regularly break the internet, see blank domain redirecting to advertising, various MITM attacks, working with advertisers to sell your data, ignoring best practices to enable DDOSing, the list goes on.

There is little to no choice, so there is little to no market force occurring so arguing that "any ISP that does X" when you might have 1 other choice who might just as bad doesn't really work.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#63

Post by marknutter »

shallot_router wrote: post #46
jfaucett wrote: post #16

Does anyone else find the internet market odd? Up until now net neutrality and other policies have given us the following: 1. Massive monopolies which essentially control 95% of all tech (google, facebook, amazon, microsoft, apple, etc) 2. An internet where every consumer assumes everything should be free. 3. An internet where there's only enough room for a handfull of players in each market globally i.e. if you have…

ISPs and utility companies are natural monopolies. When you move to a new location, you're stuck with the ISPs that service that location; often just 1 ISP. By giving them the power to selectively control what they're sending down the pipe, the monopoly problem will grow far far worse. Net neutrality is not the cause of the problems you listed, and removing it won't solve any of them.

> ISPs and utility companies are natural monopolies. When you move to a new location, you're stuck with the ISPs that service that location; often just 1 ISP.

This is simply not true. With the wide availability of cellular service that provides broadband speeds pretty much everyone in the country has multiple choices of ISP.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#64

Post by jameslk »

specializeded wrote: post #24
jameslk wrote: post #18

I don't understand why you're getting downvoted. This is a valid question and shouldn't be downvoted so others can learn from the discussion.

You don't understand why a talking point that's been attacked and discredited every single time it's been brought up, every single time net neutrality is rearing its head is downvoted? Why don't you just honestly say: "stop downvoting" instead of feigning this absurd obtuseness. There were 7 top level replies to the comment before you came along, hardly lacking discussion even with the downvotes.

> a talking point

It's a question. There isn't any statements or manipulation in it.

> Why don't you just honestly say: "stop downvoting"

I effectively did. I said it "shouldn't be downvoted"

> There were 7 top level replies to the comment before you came along, hardly lacking discussion even with the downvotes.

That's my point. Hopefully others get to read those comments if this question isn't already pinned to the bottom.

For the record, I'm not against net neutrality.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#65

Post by shawnee_ »

Net neutrality is fundamental to free speech. Without net neutrality, big companies could censor your voice and make it harder to speak up online. Net neutrality has been called the “First Amendment of the Internet.”

Not just harder. Infinitely more dangerous. Probably the scariest implications for NN being gutted are those around loss of anonymity through the Internet. ISPs who are allowed to sell users' browsing history, data packets, personal info with zero legal implications --> that anonymity suddenly comes with a price. And anything that comes with a price can be sold.

A reporter's sources must be able to be anonymous in many instances where release of information about corruption creates political instability, endangers the reporter, endangers the source, endangers the truth from being revealed. These "rollbacks" of regulations make it orders of magnitude easier for any entity in a corporation or organization to track down people who attempt to expose their illegal actions / skirting of laws. Corporations have every incentive to suppress information that hurts their stock price. Corrupt local officials governments have every incentive to suppress individuals who threaten their "job security". Corrupt PACs have every incentive to drown out that one tiny voice that speaks the truth.

A government that endorses suppression cannot promote safety, stability, or prosperity of its people.

EDIT: Yes, I am also referring to the loss of Broadband Privacy rules as they have implications in the rollback of net neutrality: https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/29/15100620/congress-fcc-isp...

Loss of broadband privacy: Yes, your data can and will be sold

Loss of net neutrality: How much of it and for how much?

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#66

Post by kakarot »

1ba9115454 wrote: post #2

How much of this can just be fixed by the free market? If I feel an ISP is limiting my choices wouldn't I just switch?

Where do you live that gives you more than one choice of a decent ISP?

Do you really think even if you had half a dozen good providers, they wouldn't play ball and snatch up premium data deals?

Who do you think is lobbying for this change in policy to begin with? All of our ISPs, uniting against a common enemy: the savvy consumer.

When you hear and agree with things like "but free market competition will save us!" you are buying directly into their propaganda campaign.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#67

Post by jimktrains2 »

scoates wrote: post #12
jwilk wrote: post #10

If you want people to take your article seriously, then maybe you shouldn't put a pointless animated GIF in it.

The HTML of the page doesn't contain "888". This makes it impossible for some disabled people to get the number at all. This makes it a practical concern in addition to bad taste.

And it flashes so fast, no human could actually call the number. It's very frustrating, even for able people!

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#68

Post by Maken »

jfaucett wrote: post #16

Does anyone else find the internet market odd? Up until now net neutrality and other policies have given us the following: 1. Massive monopolies which essentially control 95% of all tech (google, facebook, amazon, microsoft, apple, etc) 2. An internet where every consumer assumes everything should be free. 3. An internet where there's only enough room for a handfull of players in each market globally i.e. if you have…

Net neutrality just makes internet services a free market, which does not avoid monopolies but makes competition possible. The alternative is a captive market, which actively imposes monopolies.

Also, net neutrality is about consumers not being monitored by ISPs.

Re: Net neutrality is in jeopardy again

#69

Post by grandalf »

jfaucett wrote: post #16

Does anyone else find the internet market odd? Up until now net neutrality and other policies have given us the following: 1. Massive monopolies which essentially control 95% of all tech (google, facebook, amazon, microsoft, apple, etc) 2. An internet where every consumer assumes everything should be free. 3. An internet where there's only enough room for a handfull of players in each market globally i.e. if you have…

People miss the detail that it's those big players that want net neutrality because it lets them essentially have a captive last mile infrastructure that requires no investment on their part.
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