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French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

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Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#151

Post by gonvaled »

blibble wrote: post #111
pinaceae wrote: post #74

The most successful peace project on European soil of the last 1000 years can continue. Naysayers of the EU need to learn history. It is worth every penny, every inch of inconvenience. TWO fucking world wars were started by Europe, by nations that formed the Coal/Steel Union after 45 and now enjoy the longest, uninterrupted period of peace since, like, EVER. The EU's economy is the largest in the world. You don't fuc…

so the peace was nothing to do with the fact the USSR had several million troops, tens of thousands of nuclear weapons and a few thousand tanks 10 miles away? former largest economy: after brexit the EU27 economy will be smaller than the US

Brexit not yet through ...

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#152

Post by kakwa_ »

pinaceae wrote: post #74

The most successful peace project on European soil of the last 1000 years can continue. Naysayers of the EU need to learn history. It is worth every penny, every inch of inconvenience. TWO fucking world wars were started by Europe, by nations that formed the Coal/Steel Union after 45 and now enjoy the longest, uninterrupted period of peace since, like, EVER. The EU's economy is the largest in the world. You don't fuc…

It might be a little too simplistic to credit the EU for 70 years of peace.

There is no major conflict directly involving two major powers for many decades (1945/WW2, or 1952/korean war if considering that China was a major power at that time, which is generous IMHO).

That's not limited to Europe, this statement is valid for the whole world.

Several factors can explain it:

* Better living conditions (far less frequent famines, less large scale epidemics, etc), mostly due to industrialization of many countries and consequently less tensions inside and between countries over resources.

* For a part, economic dependencies between countries.

* MAD, but also the realization after WW2 that a major conflict, using modern weapons, even only conventional ones, can only lead to both sides actually losing.

* Better worldwide coordination through the UN (imperfect, yet it helps).

* Better education for large parts of the world population.

* More pacifist views and reject of war.

This is still oversimplifying why there is this unprecedented peaceful period, but it shows the CECA/CEE/EU is far from being the only factor at play.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#153

Post by polotics »

sangnoir wrote: post #129
petre wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Austria Hungary has failed. The Soviet Union has failed even though everybody in it was speaking Russian, which is not the case with the EU. The EU will fail if it continues like this, with massive centralization of power. The difference is that unlike Austria Hungary and the USSR, it does not have a standing army to back its power and member states will leave when economic crisis hits and it's no longer in their bes…

> The EU will fail if it continues like this, with massive centralization of power. I keep hearing this argument, but I've never heard any supporting arguments. What evidence is there that "sovereignty" is optimal at the administrative scale of modern-day nation-states and not EU-sized scales, or going the other direction, at provincial, city or district levels?

The evidence is to be found in the study of monetary policy. Depending on your political inclination, I suggest a web search for late Thatcher speeches, or Varoufakis books. Ideally, both.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#154

Post by germanier »

sparkling wrote: post #82
d215 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the EU is trying to do has been done in the past and it has failed. First, If we would never try what in the past has failed then we would be really in a very stagnant state. Second, the EU has not failed, the EU is still the main reason for the prosperity most of its members have gained and still continue to gain after WWII. That it has had some backlashes recently does not mean at all that it has failed. > T…

> It is however necessary for a internal economic market that guarantees the free flow of capital and labor That is, by definition, the purpose of the European Economic Area. Not the EU.

Which (apart from agriculture and fishery) regularly incorporates the EU acquis as an integral part of how it's set up. I would more accurately describe the purpose of the EEA as "provide a way of EU membership without calling it such".

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#155

Post by wsc981 »

polotics wrote: post #146
wsc981 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I see this as a huge concern. Choosing Macron means keeping the status quo, which means continued mass immigration, continued bad economic policy, etc... in Europe. I am sure the bankers will be glad as will the European Commission and the multinationals, but the common people will become disillusioned in a few years as more and more terrorist attacks will happen into Europe and the problems with the ec…

Bonjour wsc! Your understanding of the economics I can only describe as: not even wrong. No money printing is going on, governments do not buy, but emit (..sell) bonds. The real issues are competitivity differences between countries, aging populations in dire need.of immigration (say a half syrian like Steve Jobs) and some wildly inefficient top heavy administrations, also Target2 imbalances. Read up! Bonne chance en…

But the ECB is printing money, see: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/Leading_business_...

And yes, technically countries are not buying bonds, but selling bonds to the ECB. But the ECB is acting on behalf of the countries.

Finally, I expect most immigrants that have a proper education & perhaps money would prefer to e.g. the USA. Increasing immigration as a solution to an aging population is also something that, in the long run, is not sustainable (for many reasons, including ecological). It's time with think of other solutions and perhaps Japan will be able to lead the way in this area, in the future.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#156

Post by [deleted] »

sangnoir wrote: post #129
petre wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Austria Hungary has failed. The Soviet Union has failed even though everybody in it was speaking Russian, which is not the case with the EU. The EU will fail if it continues like this, with massive centralization of power. The difference is that unlike Austria Hungary and the USSR, it does not have a standing army to back its power and member states will leave when economic crisis hits and it's no longer in their bes…

> The EU will fail if it continues like this, with massive centralization of power. I keep hearing this argument, but I've never heard any supporting arguments. What evidence is there that "sovereignty" is optimal at the administrative scale of modern-day nation-states and not EU-sized scales, or going the other direction, at provincial, city or district levels?

[deleted]

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#157

Post by sangnoir »

polotics wrote: post #153
sangnoir wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU will fail if it continues like this, with massive centralization of power. I keep hearing this argument, but I've never heard any supporting arguments. What evidence is there that "sovereignty" is optimal at the administrative scale of modern-day nation-states and not EU-sized scales, or going the other direction, at provincial, city or district levels?

The evidence is to be found in the study of monetary policy. Depending on your political inclination, I suggest a web search for late Thatcher speeches, or Varoufakis books. Ideally, both.

Thatcher only convinces me Manchester would have been better off as a city-state, setting it's own monetary policy instead of Thatcherism.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#158

Post by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 »

DonHopkins wrote: post #122
__ddd__ wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't present your argument in meme form, not sure you're going to change any minds... When a negative tendency must be negated, there are always people who pretend the negation is no different. It's a question of what/who not to tolerate, and why -- the answer doesn't fit in an image macro or on a bumper sticker, just as it can't be packaged in a word like "intolerance".

They believe the left not tolerating their "different opinions" cancels out their "different opinions" of not tolerating people because of their race, religion, gender, sexual preference, etc.

A sizeable portion of the modern Left definitely say that believing in the concept of borders and controlled immigration is intolerance – and thus unacceptable – but fail to see that it is an opinion, not a fact. This is one area where the modern Left nears actual fascists, by (conveniently for them) labelling some arbitrary opinions as “invalid”.

Another opinion is to call it intolerance to have doors and locks in homes. What, you don't tolerate trespassers there? Should that intolerance be tolerated?

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#159

Post by polotics »

wsc981 wrote: post #155
polotics wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bonjour wsc! Your understanding of the economics I can only describe as: not even wrong. No money printing is going on, governments do not buy, but emit (..sell) bonds. The real issues are competitivity differences between countries, aging populations in dire need.of immigration (say a half syrian like Steve Jobs) and some wildly inefficient top heavy administrations, also Target2 imbalances. Read up! Bonne chance en…

But the ECB is printing money, see: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/Leading_business_... And yes, technically countries are not buying bonds, but selling bonds to the ECB. But the ECB is acting on behalf of the countries. Finally, I expect most immigrants that have a proper education & perhaps money would prefer to e.g. the USA. Increasing immigration as a solution to an aging population is also something…

Wow I disagree with every single thing you wrote. Sorry would take too long to discuss

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#160

Post by agumonkey »

remy_0 wrote: post #142
agumonkey wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JMLP had a different game to play. Since, MLP spent years softening the FN image. Then wars and terrorism striked. Not long ago it was given that considering the context she would win. My opinion is that the 34% is peak nationalism and people will go back to normal parties.

> normal parties. The matter is not the parties. It's ideologies. FN is prospering because of the remanent xenophobic culture of France. There is always a reason for hatred, it does not fade so easily

I don't think people are that xenophobic in France. Not like core FN.
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