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French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

bbc.com

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Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#121

Post by [deleted] »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #88
DonHopkins wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with not tolerating intolerance? Not to be confused with not tolerating not tolerating intolerance, which is a totally different thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Philosopher Karl Popper defined the paradox in 1945 in The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1. Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend u…

The people blaming the left for not tolerating intolerance don't actually think this deep, to them it's just a meme or oneliner, often coupled with exclamation marks and words like snowflake, liberal tears and cuck.

[deleted]

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#122

Post by DonHopkins »

__ddd__ wrote: post #85
DonHopkins wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with not tolerating intolerance? Not to be confused with not tolerating not tolerating intolerance, which is a totally different thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance Philosopher Karl Popper defined the paradox in 1945 in The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1. Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend u…

You didn't present your argument in meme form, not sure you're going to change any minds... When a negative tendency must be negated, there are always people who pretend the negation is no different. It's a question of what/who not to tolerate, and why -- the answer doesn't fit in an image macro or on a bumper sticker, just as it can't be packaged in a word like "intolerance".

They believe the left not tolerating their "different opinions" cancels out their "different opinions" of not tolerating people because of their race, religion, gender, sexual preference, etc.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#123

Post by wsc981 »

Faaak wrote: post #120
wsc981 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I see this as a huge concern. Choosing Macron means keeping the status quo, which means continued mass immigration, continued bad economic policy, etc... in Europe. I am sure the bankers will be glad as will the European Commission and the multinationals, but the common people will become disillusioned in a few years as more and more terrorist attacks will happen into Europe and the problems with the ec…

I live in France near the Swiss-France border and all this talk about how more borders will reduce terrorism and immigration is completely bullshit. I cross every day the border. Twice a week, I cross another border which is meant to be closed from 19h to 6h (many small borders near the FR-CH do that). There is a simply locked barrier. Nothing more. This has been here for 25+ years. Of course, I've crossed "illegally…

I've seen borders working fine. For example in Israel. Hungary seems to be doing well also. I don't believe in this rhetoric that borders don't work.

Back when I was a small boy, almost every month there was some bombing going on in Israel. These attacks have been greatly reduced by several measures, including the building of the wall.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#124

Post by maolt »

deanCommie wrote: post #65
wsc981 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a European I see this as a huge concern. Choosing Macron means keeping the status quo, which means continued mass immigration, continued bad economic policy, etc... in Europe. I am sure the bankers will be glad as will the European Commission and the multinationals, but the common people will become disillusioned in a few years as more and more terrorist attacks will happen into Europe and the problems with the ec…

Have you and your European friends tried actually addressing some of the racist beliefs you casually take for granted which lead you to discriminate against immigrants when it comes to integration into society? (They are always considered lesser, even after numerous generations in the country). Source: Am Canadian who moved to Europe 2 years ago and am constantly shocked by how racists Europeans are. I think part of…

The difference between europe on one hand and the US and Canada on the other hand, is that in the latter cases, the original population has been "replaced".

As an European, I find it quite tasteless to be criticised by Canadians for our views on immigration, when you get the cream of the crop and we get the rabble mostly because of geographical reasons. To take an example from Turkey: you get the educated slice of society, liberal and progressive. We get the peasants that deem it normal to bury their daughters alive because they talk with boys. (This is an exaggeration, but you don't seem to mind heavy-handedness).

We don't oppose mass immigration because of the color of their skin or their religion, but because their views regarding women's rights, LGBT rights are so alien to ours, as well as because we don't actually manage to assimilate migrants fast enough to ensure our society thrives.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#125

Post by Faaak »

wsc981 wrote: post #123
Faaak wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in France near the Swiss-France border and all this talk about how more borders will reduce terrorism and immigration is completely bullshit. I cross every day the border. Twice a week, I cross another border which is meant to be closed from 19h to 6h (many small borders near the FR-CH do that). There is a simply locked barrier. Nothing more. This has been here for 25+ years. Of course, I've crossed "illegally…

I've seen borders working fine. For example in Israel. Hungary seems to be doing well also. I don't believe in this rhetoric that borders don't work. Back when I was a small boy, almost every month there was some bombing going on in Israel. These attacks have been greatly reduced by several measures, including the building of the wall.

Can you imagine a wall all around France ‽

As for the second par of your argument, I don't know the context but to me it seems more of a correlation than a causation.

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#126

Post by sangnoir »

tradersam wrote: post #104
pottersbasilisk wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political outsider doesnt mean anti-establishment. Trump is clearly anti-establishment. Macron was pro-eu.

I think it has been proven Trump isn't actually anti-establishment, that was just a lie he used during the campaign.

Has it been proven? One of his advisers is on the record stating that the cabinet was chosen to "deconstruct the administrative state"[1], and Trump proceeded to appoint individuals (at least 2 by my reckoning) with beliefs contrary to the missions of the agencies they lead.

1. http://fortune.com/2017/02/25/bannon-trump-cabinet-cpac/

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#127

Post by dirtyaura »

petre wrote: post #100
dirtyaura wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Macron is a political outsider. He is from elite schools, served as a finance minister before. What he (and powers that backed him) realized is that political landscapes are changing everywhere and there was an opportunity to run without support of traditional parties. The major political axis is now national/conservative vs global/liberal, instead of traditional economic left vs right.

Don't fool yourself, it's still left/right and will get even more radicalized as the economic climate worsens and we face disruption (terrorism, migration).

Don't fool yourself: terrorism by a few religious loonies as a problem has been and will be a drop in the ocean.

The real issues are: how we organize work and social security in the global knowledge economy? How we deal with the climate change? How we deal with info ops, which is already much more destabilizing problem for western democracies than terrorism. You are right that migration is tough challenge, how we will handle increasing migration?

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#128

Post by pottersbasilisk »

bkjelden wrote: post #109

It seems that Trump and Brexit may have been the high water mark for the wave of nationalism sweeping the west. 2017 has seen nationalist candidates fade and underperform their polls across the EU. Trump has made less actual policy progress towards his nationalist goals than perhaps many feared/expected. Things were quite scary a few months ago. There are still things to be concerned about going forward, but politics…

Condoleeza rice disagrees. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/05/07/condoleezza-r...

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#129

Post by sangnoir »

petre wrote: post #115
d215 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the EU is trying to do has been done in the past and it has failed. First, If we would never try what in the past has failed then we would be really in a very stagnant state. Second, the EU has not failed, the EU is still the main reason for the prosperity most of its members have gained and still continue to gain after WWII. That it has had some backlashes recently does not mean at all that it has failed. > T…

Austria Hungary has failed. The Soviet Union has failed even though everybody in it was speaking Russian, which is not the case with the EU. The EU will fail if it continues like this, with massive centralization of power. The difference is that unlike Austria Hungary and the USSR, it does not have a standing army to back its power and member states will leave when economic crisis hits and it's no longer in their bes…

> The EU will fail if it continues like this, with massive centralization of power.

I keep hearing this argument, but I've never heard any supporting arguments. What evidence is there that "sovereignty" is optimal at the administrative scale of modern-day nation-states and not EU-sized scales, or going the other direction, at provincial, city or district levels?

Re: French election: Macron defeats Le Pen

#130

Post by dang »

AckSyn wrote: post #93

Some people want their country to continue to be a shithole with rampant unchecked illegals and migrants thumbing their noses at the law. All for what? Some false utopian ideal of "but muh multiculturalism"

We've banned this account for using HN for ideological battle, which is an abuse of this site.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14286863 and marked it off-topic.

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