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Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

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Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#161

Post by Turing_Machine »

EduardoBautista wrote: post #99
ma2rten wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

You need it if you don't want to work on cookie cutter applications.

I may need it, but I don't necessarily need to keep it in my head.

That's why I own copies of Knuth, and Sedgewick, and Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, and Stein.

Now, the ability to understand and make intelligent use of those resources is something that requires education (formal or self). But oddly no one (that I've heard of) ever tests for that ability in job interviews.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#162

Post by dba7dba »

paganel wrote: post #159
dba7dba wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. All of us outside of military hear about pilots and Navy SEAL at work most of the time. But 99% of men/women in military work doing none of that stuff. But that 99% are still gainfully employed doing essential work.

Am not military and especially I'm not American, but IMHO wars on the field are not won with Navy SEALs but with logistics and I'd add artillery. Those sound boring compared to any special forces, but they're not, quite the contrary.

I was talking about the amount of media attention given to pilots/SEAL/etc. But yes wars are won with artillery. But luckily, we haven't had a war like that in awhile, especially for US.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#163

Post by [deleted] »

paganel wrote: post #159
dba7dba wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. All of us outside of military hear about pilots and Navy SEAL at work most of the time. But 99% of men/women in military work doing none of that stuff. But that 99% are still gainfully employed doing essential work.

Am not military and especially I'm not American, but IMHO wars on the field are not won with Navy SEALs but with logistics and I'd add artillery. Those sound boring compared to any special forces, but they're not, quite the contrary.

[deleted]

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#164

Post by taneq »

crdoconnor wrote: post #131
ma2rten wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

Weirdly they seem to ask the CS fundamentals that aren't as relevant (algorithms) and skip those that are (e.g. the relational model, data structures (uses of), type theory, formal grammar). I wouldn't say that you don't need it, but I would say that most companies ask about the wrong bits.

It always baffles me when people say that algorithms aren't relevant to software development. It's like saying thermodynamics isn't relevant to engine design.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#165

Post by narribbi »

wutbrodo wrote: post #128
narribbi wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fundamental knowledge of math and science that separates engineers from 'coders'. Only math. Furthermore, someone with years of coding instinctively develops such mathematical understanding, while the very same understanding will be lost on someone who just graduated, but has never coded.

> Furthermore, someone with years of coding instinctively develops such mathematical understanding FWIW, this isn't my experience. I have a CS/math background, spent the first few yrs of my career at Google, and then moved to a startup as the first employee. We had a lot of difficulty sourcing good candidates, and our first two hires were 1) a guy with no engineering experience and domain knowledge that had programme…

There's provability ("math"), and testability / falsifiability ("science"), and then there's just making it work amidst a deluge of trade-offs ("engineering"). If in the end, you simply can't make it work, the entire exercise becomes futile. In that sense, I do not really believe in favouring the formalisms of provability and testability at just any cost. If the person can actually solve the practical problem, then that should allow us to move on, no? That is why I like having that kind of people on my team.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#166

Post by JamesBarney »

taneq wrote: post #164
crdoconnor wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weirdly they seem to ask the CS fundamentals that aren't as relevant (algorithms) and skip those that are (e.g. the relational model, data structures (uses of), type theory, formal grammar). I wouldn't say that you don't need it, but I would say that most companies ask about the wrong bits.

It always baffles me when people say that algorithms aren't relevant to software development. It's like saying thermodynamics isn't relevant to engine design.

It doesn't seem that baffling to me. The majority of software applications could only moderately be improved by CS algorithms.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#167

Post by JamesBarney »

aphextron wrote: post #50
polpo wrote: post #3

Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again. This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software en…

I agree with you about the VA. But when you say the industry needs more engineers not coders I find this ironic because I have lots of engineering friends who became coders, and no coding friends who became engineers.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#168

Post by crdoconnor »

taneq wrote: post #164
crdoconnor wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weirdly they seem to ask the CS fundamentals that aren't as relevant (algorithms) and skip those that are (e.g. the relational model, data structures (uses of), type theory, formal grammar). I wouldn't say that you don't need it, but I would say that most companies ask about the wrong bits.

It always baffles me when people say that algorithms aren't relevant to software development. It's like saying thermodynamics isn't relevant to engine design.

More like saying that knowing the atomic crystalline structures of metals isn't relevant to engine design.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#169

Post by prh8 »

grogenaut wrote: post #140

I guess another question I have is what is a coder camp doing that it costs more ( http://www.bootcamps.in/san-francisco/coder-camps/ ) $9,900 for a 9 week (just over 2 months) course, when in state tuition for a year at University of Washington ( https://admit.washington.edu/costs-and-financial-aid/total-c... ) is $10k for around 7 months and out of state is $34,791 for the same time. Eg are they really equivalent t…

What are they doing that universities aren't? Raking in money
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