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Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

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Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#91
post #3

Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again. This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software en…

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?").

Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#92
I run a code bootcamp, and I honestly think it's a very good thing that the GI bill doesn't apply to code schools. At least, not until we're controlling for outcomes somehow.

Here's why:

As soon as GI bills (or any federal funding) enter the education space the product and outcomes no longer matter to the most ambitious (/greedy) companies; all you have to do is capture those dollars before someone else. The product doesn't actually matter in a financial sense because you have person A spending person B's money.

I think there's a solution, and the person this article was written about needs to be given a chance, but there needs to be some serious curation. Some online code bootcamps have graduation rates (that's graduation, not even hiring rates) of ~30%. And that's of people who paid $8,000 of their own money. Think what they would be if they were just soaking up GI bill money. Candidly the space is full of garbage schools that don't teach very much already.

Look at for-profit education lead gen for accredited universities and you'll see how quickly the race to the bottom happens. ITT Tech is the most recent example, but there's something messed up about the fact that you can sell a hot swap of a potential student on the phone for $500+. It's just an influx of money that needs to be captured from not-too-discerning spenders, and with no connection to outcome. That's bad for all involved.

Want to hear something else messed up? One of the most lucrative ways to drive those education leads is from "jobs." Post a fake job, turn someone down, then, "Oh it looks like you don't qualify for job x (that may or may not have existed), but you can attend y for free because there are grants/loans available so do that instead." Farm out those leads to a overseas call center that's paid based on how fast they can get people the biggest loans, and profit. It's a federally funded scam and a wasteland of money the poor and uneducated (or taxpayer) are on the hook for, while the companies best at marketing make a killing. I can't even type because I get so mad thinking about it.

So I think GI bills should apply to code schools, but if and only if they meet outcomes x y z. And we're not there yet.

As an aside, if there's a vet (or anyone that can't afford it) that wants to learn to code please reach out to me. We're going to be launching a six month online computer science degree soon that's free up front and a percentage of income only after you get a high-paying job. If you don't get there we fail and we get nothing. It's a lot of "credit" risk for us, and you'll have to pay a percentage back, but it's the best we can do, and it's only fair to align incentives. Email in bio.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#93
Is there any data out there on how successful code schools are in terms of job placement and more importantly longer term success in hands-on coding (non-managerial)?

I've always had a perception (perhaps wrongly) that people who code are somewhat natural at it and don't need to be taught. Honestly I've never met anyone that was any good that was taught to code in school or by a book.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#94
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My apologies, I would like to adopt dpwm's restatement: > They are like [the] Trump voters willing to throw their lot in with whomever tells them "it will be okay", regardless of how unscrupulous and incompetent those promise-makers are.

Ok, we've put that edit in. But please don't drop partisan tangents into HN comments. It's basically trolling, as you can see by the destructive effects on this thread (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14277404 ) and, even with the edit, mars your otherwise fine comment.

This is why reasonable, rational people are losing and will continue to keep losing. Because we accept calling Trump unscrupulous and incompetent as a partisan opinion when it is actually clearly a statement of fact based on ample amounts of evidence.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#95
post #3

Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

I think established and accredited universities should set up two year coding programs that can teach the trade as opposed to pop up overpriced bootcamps that usually operate without much accountability. Then the GI Bill can pick up the tab for such programs.

There's no need to water down university education. We already have community colleges which offer Associate's Degrees and university extensions which offer certificate programs. For example in Silicon Valley, De Anza college offers an AS degree in Programming and UCSC Extension offers a certificate program in Software Engineering. Those can be good options for someone who just wants to learn practical code construction skills without getting deep into CS theory.

https://www.deanza.edu/counseling/degreecert.html

https://www.ucsc-extension.edu/programs/software-engineering...

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#96
post #3

Whether you believe code schools are good or bad (I lean somewhat towards good), I wonder if we have not fully learned the lesson from the rash several years ago of fly-by-night for-profit colleges preying on vets and providing substandard education and inflated job promises, all on the GI Bill's dime. I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again. This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software en…

> The fundamental knowledge of math and science that separates engineers from 'coders'.

Only math. Furthermore, someone with years of coding instinctively develops such mathematical understanding, while the very same understanding will be lost on someone who just graduated, but has never coded.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#97
What we really need are trade schools supported by the community and the state like community colleges. For-profit education like for-profit healthcare is kinda uncivilized and backwards. I think all bootcamps are for-profit so this opens up plenty of room for someone to actually do the right thing and set up a non-profit bootcamp.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#98
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with self-teaching is that you don't know what you don't know, so you don't realise where the gaps in your knowledge are. There's quite a difference between programming, in the sense of knowing how to put (say) Python code together, and being a professional developer. The latter should include a whole extra set of analytical, algorithmic, social, and professional skills. In practice it may not - but it do…

And then there are those with sheep skins that still can't program FizzBuzz. I even had professors in computer science that hated using computers and could barely conceal their contempt of them.

What did you expect? The purpose of a Computer Science education is not to teach programming. Just like a Physics education doesn't teach you how to bolt together steel beams on a bridge.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#99
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again. This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software en…

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

You need it if you don't want to work on cookie cutter applications.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#100
I have a couple thoughts on this subject as it directly applies to me. In many ways the G.I Bill is a coupon thats worth up to $22,000/year + (monthly cost of rent for every month in school). Many vets end up using the GI Bill just for the monthly rent check (for SF its like 4k/mo).

I am a strong believer in freedom of choice and personal responsibility. If I earned that GI Bill i should be able to spend it where I see fit. If you want to spend all of it in University of Phoenix or ITT tech or Harvard go ahead. But to baby people and protect them and removing their own personal responsibility I think is morally wrong and does more harm to the Vet in the long run.

Maybe blowing their GI Bill in X school/program wasn't the best choice but hopefully they gain some valuable experience out of it and come out the better for it.

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