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Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

reuters.com

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Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#181

Post by DannyBee »

wav-part wrote: post #117
nebabyte wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, IANAL but it sounds like the definition of obstruction of justice

Uber is not obstructing any investigation. They are proactively denying service to all LEOs. The mere act of driving or not driving to an LEO for whatever reason is not breaking of law.

"They are proactively denying service to all LEOs." No, that would be fine. They are instead, pretending to serve them and deliberately misleading them :)

This is the "it's okay to not answer questions, it's not okay to deliberately mislead"

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#182

Post by DannyBee »

sandworm101 wrote: post #116
nebabyte wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, IANAL but it sounds like the definition of obstruction of justice

Not really. For textbook obstruction one would need a criminal investigation that Uber was seeking to stymie. There needs to be an underlying actual crime. Whether Uber has committed any crimes is not clear. They will more likely bring conspiracy rather than obstruction charges.

"For textbook obstruction one would need a criminal investigation that Uber was seeking to stymie."

In the case i'm aware of, law enforcement was investigating criminal violations of local ordinances by unlicensed uber drivers.

While i'm sure not a felony, that's definitely a criminal investigation they were seeking to stymie.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#183

Post by mastax »

obstinate wrote: post #170
gotothedoctor wrote: post #162

Seems like a lot of people are confused/have questions about why Uber is being criminally investigated by the Department of Justice.* Here's why: 1. Uber is subject to the laws in the jurisdictions in which it operates. Evading authorities is textbook obstruction of justice. Not only did Uber build software that they used to evade authorities & break local laws in multiple states and countries, but they profited from…

> 2. Sure, corporations are people too, but, nonetheless, only people engage in civil disobedience. Related, for courts, a company that profits from violating of local laws is not a protester or freedom fighter battling injustice, it is criminal enterprise. This point seems out of place to me. To my understanding as a lay person, the law does not distinguish between a crime committed as civil disobedience and the sam…

Wikipedia can help maybe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience#Legal_impli...

> Governments have generally not recognized the legitimacy of civil disobedience or viewed political objectives as an excuse for breaking the law. Specifically, the law usually distinguishes between criminal motive and criminal intent; the offender's motives or purposes may be admirable and praiseworthy, but his intent may still be criminal. Hence the saying that "if there is any possible justification of civil disobedience it must come from outside the legal system."

See also the Necessity Defense (the above mentioned "political necessity") [0] and Jury Nullification [1].

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_(criminal_law)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification_in_the_Unit...

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#185

Post by gotothedoctor »

obstinate wrote: post #170
gotothedoctor wrote: post #162

Seems like a lot of people are confused/have questions about why Uber is being criminally investigated by the Department of Justice.* Here's why: 1. Uber is subject to the laws in the jurisdictions in which it operates. Evading authorities is textbook obstruction of justice. Not only did Uber build software that they used to evade authorities & break local laws in multiple states and countries, but they profited from…

> 2. Sure, corporations are people too, but, nonetheless, only people engage in civil disobedience. Related, for courts, a company that profits from violating of local laws is not a protester or freedom fighter battling injustice, it is criminal enterprise. This point seems out of place to me. To my understanding as a lay person, the law does not distinguish between a crime committed as civil disobedience and the sam…

I can understand the confusion/maybe I should have separated that into several points & or not sought to respond to the corporations are people comment I was certain I'd get before it was even said:) I'll try to unpack it but I may just make it worse..

1) People love to say corporations are people too (thanks SCOTUS), but the law doesn't actually always consider corporations as legal people. It depends on lots of things.

2) "The law" is also too vague. Sometimes intent is relevant, sometimes its not; it just depends on what the law itself says.

3) Civil disobedience is not (as far as I know-there's a lot of laws) a defense for law-breaking, but, it may mitigate punishment or liability for a human. This depends on many things, ranging from the law, to the jurisdiction, to the facts of the case.

4) The distinction I was trying to make was: unlike people, companies do not engage in civil disobedience and a court will not allow a company to claim otherwise, be it as defense or as liability mitigation.

Hope that answers your question?

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#186

Post by crush-n-spread »

gotothedoctor wrote: post #162

Seems like a lot of people are confused/have questions about why Uber is being criminally investigated by the Department of Justice.* Here's why: 1. Uber is subject to the laws in the jurisdictions in which it operates. Evading authorities is textbook obstruction of justice. Not only did Uber build software that they used to evade authorities & break local laws in multiple states and countries, but they profited from…

Hi, what does USA stand for in this case?

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#187

Post by wavefunction »

inetknght wrote: post #169
nradov wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the prosecutor is able to prove intent and you had committed some other crime as well then yes, you and your friend could potentially both be convicted of conspiracy to obstruct justice. This isn't some kind of game; judges don't look favorably on defendants playing tricks.

Note to self: if I find a car following me, I should immediately turn myself in to authorities or face "repercussions".

It would likely be the safe thing to do? Are you going to drive to your house or workplace and park and see what they do?

Maybe the repercussions wouldn't be from the authorities, in your hypothetical situation.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#188

Post by holly4 »

gotothedoctor wrote: post #162

Seems like a lot of people are confused/have questions about why Uber is being criminally investigated by the Department of Justice.* Here's why: 1. Uber is subject to the laws in the jurisdictions in which it operates. Evading authorities is textbook obstruction of justice. Not only did Uber build software that they used to evade authorities & break local laws in multiple states and countries, but they profited from…

Well I hope some one goes to jail. Though my hopes aren't high after 2008.

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#189

Post by chx »

derefr wrote: post #179
MichaelGG wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds as fake of a crime as money laundering. Certainly misleading officials that haven't identified as being on official business should not be a crime.

The point wasn't who you ended up misleading, but that your intent was to mislead investigators in particular. Throwing a brick off the top of a building into a crowded street is attempted murder, even if it doesn't hit anybody, because clearly you had intent to drop the brick on a person's head.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Re: Uber faces criminal probe over software used to evade authorities

#190

Post by nappy »

MichaelGG wrote: post #172
nradov wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the prosecutor is able to prove intent and you had committed some other crime as well then yes, you and your friend could potentially both be convicted of conspiracy to obstruct justice. This isn't some kind of game; judges don't look favorably on defendants playing tricks.

That sounds as fake of a crime as money laundering. Certainly misleading officials that haven't identified as being on official business should not be a crime.

*as

How is money laundering a "fake" crime?

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