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Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#51

Post by luckydude »

brilliantcode wrote: post #48
luckydude wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm plenty confident, in fact, too much perhaps. After all, I founded a company that has lasted 19 years (and technically still exists, we have some money in the bank). That company changed the world. No, we didn't win, but all the distributed source management systems came after us, we were first, they are copies of our model. We invented that space, clone/pull/push/commit are our verbs. We invented, in effect [1],…

I meant more from the investors angle. I definitely don't get any sense of confidence from the business point of view but I can see there is little doubt in your technical execution. But there lies the problem. You are deeply attached with your ideas and product. You said yourself, you spent 19 years changing the world in this area but not satisfied. It makes sense why you would point to marketing as being the fault.…

So we did pretty well on the business side. We were first, or very darn close to first, to realize that leasing software is smarter than selling it. That was me, that's my confidence.

I did all the sales for the first ~8 years, 16 hours a day on the phone. During that time I ran what I called "Larry's dating service" which was when I was talking to someone crazy smart I would go "Do you know ...." and then hook them up. It's not Tinder but I made a pile of really smart people get to know each other. That's confidence. I think.

Etc. I get that you are trying to tell me something but I'm not sure what it is. If I've come off as not confident that's sort of a mistake, there was a time when I was in my groove and I felt like Steve Jobs, I knew what the world wanted before they knew it. I had to push to get that stuff done, everyone said they didn't want that stuff and then they did. That takes a shitload of ego to keep going.

I'm just not sure where if I were more confident we would have been better. I suspect if I had been less confident we might be better. So I am not arguing with you or trying to disrespect you, I just don't get the not confident thing.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#52

Post by temphn »

luckydude wrote: post #38
brilliantcode wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I wrote is going to be super harsh but I'm being purely analytical and this is not to be taken personally: You definitely don't sound confident at all and I feel like your problem is much deeper one where taking VC money or not isn't the issue. It's clear from reading you would've spent the money on non-marketing as the hindsight speaks for itself. Marketing is a small part of the equation but shouldn't be most…

I'm plenty confident, in fact, too much perhaps. After all, I founded a company that has lasted 19 years (and technically still exists, we have some money in the bank). That company changed the world. No, we didn't win, but all the distributed source management systems came after us, we were first, they are copies of our model. We invented that space, clone/pull/push/commit are our verbs. We invented, in effect [1],…

Hi Larry,

I for one thank you for your contribution. Hacker News can be a bunch of jackasses at times.

You are absolutely right: distributed version control led to git, which completely changed programming. And though Satoshi didn't cite it by name it was almost certainly also part of the inspiration for Bitcoin and the blockchain, which has led to another $30B in collective market cap.

If you want a suggestion for what to do next, or what to advise, you can probably have a lot of impact (and make money) by getting involved in some of these new distributed ledger/ICO projects. You have the technical ability and it's now possible to monetize at the protocol level. Here are some links if you're interested:

https://www.smithandcrown.com/icos/

https://startupboy.com/2014/03/09/the-bitcoin-model-for-crow...

http://www.usv.com/blog/fat-protocols

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#53

Post by luckydude »

brilliantcode wrote: post #47
johnwheeler wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so consider it a lesson that can't be taught in schools You do realize you condescend Larry McVoy, right?

I think you mistook me for someone else. My name is not Larry McVoy.

No, that's me. Maybe I should change my login.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#54

Post by iamacynic »

luckydude wrote: post #50
iamacynic wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you probably could have captured a significant commercial marketshare but i highly doubt you could have beaten git in the open source world, since it was created by your highest profile customer who also happens to be the highest profile open source author (linus torvalds) in direct response to your licensing situation.

Yeah, well. We did what we could. I've been beat up about the licensing and eventually saw the light, the whole thing is open source under the Apache v2 license. As to the "direct response" stuff, so do you have that straight from Linus? Because that's not what he said to me and we were very close at the time, emailed or got on the phone daily. I'm a little tired of the licensing stuff. It wasn't as bad as people mad…

no, of course not. i'm a nobody. but that's the impression that's out there. i don't really care, tbh, it seems like it was just bad timing.

anyway, glad to hear you are retired by the sea in norcal, that's not exactly a sob story, which is why i feel comfortable commenting about it (and you're on a public forum).

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#55

Post by luckydude »

temphn wrote: post #52
luckydude wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm plenty confident, in fact, too much perhaps. After all, I founded a company that has lasted 19 years (and technically still exists, we have some money in the bank). That company changed the world. No, we didn't win, but all the distributed source management systems came after us, we were first, they are copies of our model. We invented that space, clone/pull/push/commit are our verbs. We invented, in effect [1],…

Hi Larry, I for one thank you for your contribution. Hacker News can be a bunch of jackasses at times. You are absolutely right: distributed version control led to git, which completely changed programming. And though Satoshi didn't cite it by name it was almost certainly also part of the inspiration for Bitcoin and the blockchain, which has led to another $30B in collective market cap. If you want a suggestion for w…

Hacker news hasn't cornered the market on jackasses, my opinion is that this place has one of the least amounts of jackasses. But yeah, I get your point.

I'm pretty retired but I'll check out your links. I kinda feel like a useless dinosaur but if there are places where I can help move things forward I'm 100% up for that. I just don't feel like I have that much value to add at this point.

Edit: one thing I really wish would happen, and if I could help with this I'm in, is /etc and any other config file is under version control. 3-way merge/3-way diff and merge is way way better than 2 way.

For that matter, I wish drop box was versioned. Same reason. It's always blown my mind that nobody has done a file system that was versioned so you could merge stuff. Maybe that's because BitKeeper merges so much better that the others. It's possible to automerge a lot more if you have the history.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#56

Post by luckydude »

iamacynic wrote: post #54
luckydude wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, well. We did what we could. I've been beat up about the licensing and eventually saw the light, the whole thing is open source under the Apache v2 license. As to the "direct response" stuff, so do you have that straight from Linus? Because that's not what he said to me and we were very close at the time, emailed or got on the phone daily. I'm a little tired of the licensing stuff. It wasn't as bad as people mad…

no, of course not. i'm a nobody. but that's the impression that's out there. i don't really care, tbh, it seems like it was just bad timing. anyway, glad to hear you are retired by the sea in norcal, that's not exactly a sob story, which is why i feel comfortable commenting about it (and you're on a public forum).

I was a nobody and am again. Don't sell yourself short, if you are hanging here and you know the licensing stuff you are paying attention. With that much energy my feeling is you can do stuff. Go do it. If I can help let me know.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#57

Post by eande »

dmritard96 wrote: post #18

In many cases, there simply aren't many good alternatives. I'll illustrate with our (flair.co's) example. FYI we are a hw/sw play. Why Not KS/Indiegogo We are building a product that has a large b2b angle and while the b2c angle is perhaps substantial enough that Kickstarter and Indiegogo could work, they have big enough draw backs that we decided to forgo. Specifically, it forces you to share your idea (AND its popu…

This is an excellent comment when it comes to building up a hw/sw company. I went through the same steps with my startup. Knowing most of the details from tooling/cost/inventory/CM I still keep coming back and thinking what other ways are there to build a hw/sw product company without these major investments upfront. The idea is to verify the a product-market fit for a solution before you sink in all the expenses, basically on a smaller scale. So far I have not found a fundamentally different approach other than small cost reductions like not using a polished steel tool etc.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#58

Post by siegel »

smirksirlot wrote: post #12

I've worked at 2 different startups - currently in management capacity at one. 2 cents: 1) Appreciate the $ that it provides for income + ability to grow 2) If we could do it again I would not recommend it to the founders and instead focus on bootstrapping Managing and dealing with pressures from investor is a giant suck on ability to think. No matter how much you say you're going to ignore them, they will ALWAYS wei…

The typical terms of a VC round give the VC sufficient actual power that they are difficult to ignore. They will have veto rights on major company decisions. And, assuming they have a board seat, you will be having regular board meetings in which they will have the opportunity to weigh in on strategic decision-making.

I have been involved with board meetings pre and post-VC investment, including with top-tier VCs. And it is night and day. Pre-VC investment, these meetings (if they happen) are informal. Post-VC, they become akin to a presentation to the VC, with the VC taking the role of the real "boss" in the room.

What I tell founders I am advising is this:

1) Delay VC funding until you really have use for the money and cannot fund through other means (bootstrapping, angels, etc...); 2) The best time to get funding is when you have leverage to negotiate; and 3) Most importantly - USE that leverage.

The terms of your VC financing round massively impact the founder's ability to control the company's future and enjoy the economic fruits of their labor. So, you really need to push as hard as you can - as hard as the VCs will - to get terms in your favor. Your VC will sell you as your partner and that can be true. But when you are negotiating investing terms, they are not your partner. That negotiation is simply a zero-sum game.

Your VC will want to position the company to their benefit (which is totally rational) by: 1) Minimizing their risk and pushing risk onto the founders; 2) Extracting as much of the economic benefit of any potential exit or pre-exit liquidity; 3) Obtaining as much control as possible.

This does not end when your Series A closes. For example, your VC will likely pressure you to hire their hand-picked attorneys. This is a smart and calculated decision on their part. These will be attorneys who count on the VC (and not you) for repeat business and there will always be an element of a conflict in the representation. Think about it - when you are negotiating your Series B and the VC's hand-picked counsel is trying to "help" you negotiate with the Series B investors, are they really going to play hardball with your Series A VC to take or share the dilution and control hits that your Series B investors are trying to foist on the company? Of course not - at least if the attorneys want the VC to come back to them with work again...

Don't get me wrong. A high-quality, well-chosen VC can bring experience and connections that can help your company immensely. And funding can help you achieve things you cannot achieve by bootstrapping.

But, at a minimum, go into any funding round with your eyes open, good advisors on your side, and a willingness to negotiate as hard as your VC will. Remember, a good negotiator will usually respect you more if you negotiate as hard as they do.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#59

Post by firebones »

luckydude wrote: post #55
temphn wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Larry, I for one thank you for your contribution. Hacker News can be a bunch of jackasses at times. You are absolutely right: distributed version control led to git, which completely changed programming. And though Satoshi didn't cite it by name it was almost certainly also part of the inspiration for Bitcoin and the blockchain, which has led to another $30B in collective market cap. If you want a suggestion for w…

Hacker news hasn't cornered the market on jackasses, my opinion is that this place has one of the least amounts of jackasses. But yeah, I get your point. I'm pretty retired but I'll check out your links. I kinda feel like a useless dinosaur but if there are places where I can help move things forward I'm 100% up for that. I just don't feel like I have that much value to add at this point. Edit: one thing I really wis…

>>>For that matter, I wish drop box was versioned. Same reason. It's always blown my mind that nobody has done a file system that was versioned so you could merge stuff. Maybe that's because BitKeeper merges so much better that the others. It's possible to automerge a lot more if you have the history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Files-11

(A little facetious here...no merging, but come on, it was the 1980s.)

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#60

Post by webmaven »

luckydude wrote: post #53
brilliantcode wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mistook me for someone else. My name is not Larry McVoy.

No, that's me. Maybe I should change my login.

Naw, keep it, it's a cool handle. Maybe just add your name to your profile (I know who "BitKeeper Guy" is, but there are almost certainly some users on HN who are literally younger than Git).
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