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Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#41
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Git is both free AND viral. It's viral because if you want to use someone else's code, you have to use their source control system. Linux using git is a big deal in that respect (and yes I realize the kernel used BitKeeper :) ). And BK is (was, until last year [too late]) closed software that requires a paid commercial license to use. Pretty much a show stopper for open source contributors donating their free time.

Yeah, too late. Shoulda, coulda, woulda. There's some nice code in there though, I wish people would steal our libc stuff. Some really nice ideas in there. And a pleasant license so you can use it where ever you want.

It would make it much easier to steal if you mention (that is, market) which ideas in there are worth stealing ;)

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#42
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, too late. Shoulda, coulda, woulda. There's some nice code in there though, I wish people would steal our libc stuff. Some really nice ideas in there. And a pleasant license so you can use it where ever you want.

It would make it much easier to steal if you mention (that is, market) which ideas in there are worth stealing ;)

I've long thought I should do a blog on it and submit it here, just haven't gotten around to it. Until then...

The "lines" data structure. This is a list library that scales down to a very small thing and up to pretty decent sized things. Think perl arrays and the ops on them. lines.h snippet below.

    /*
     * liblines - interfaces for autoexpanding data structures
     *
     * s= allocLines(n)
     *      pre allocate space for slightly less than N entries.
     * s = addLine(s, line)
     *      add line to s, allocating as needed.
     *      line must be a pointer to preallocated space.
     * freeLines(s, freep)
     *      free the lines array; if freep is set, call that on each entry.
     *      if freep is 0, do not free each entry.
     * buf = popLine(s)
     *      return the most recently added line (not an alloced copy of it)
     * reverseLines(s)
     *      reverse the order of the lines in the array
     * sortLines(space, compar)
     *      sort the lines using the compar function if set, else string_sort()
     * removeLine(s, which, freep)
     *      look for all lines which match "which" and remove them from the array
     *      returns number of matches found
     * removeLineN(s, i, freep)
     *      remove the 'i'th line.
     * lines = splitLine(buf, delim, lines)
     *      split buf on any/all chars in delim and put the tokens in lines.
     * buf = joinLines(":", s)
     *      return one string which is all the strings glued together with ":"
     *      does not free s, caller must free s.
     * buf = findLine(lines, needle);
     *      Return the index the line in lines that matches needle
     */

The stdio stuff. We have a way that you can "push" code on top of a FILE. Some layers we implemented were compression and CRC and XOR. The compression is lz4 (we may still have gzip); the CRC stuff splits the file up into "blocks" (size is uniform in a file but it varies by overall file size), crcs each one. The XOR stuff adds an XOR block at the end.

The result to a user is if they

    fpush(&f, fopen_crc(...));
then the file will be crc "behind the scenes". That fpush is the only new line of code to get the crc stuff. Ditto for compression.

It gives you compression and hardened files under the stdio API and it's super fast. Like GB/sec fast.

There's other stuff as well, like the spawn() code (I haven't called fork() in a decade or more) that brings a form of Windows spawn to Unix (since you can't make fork() work well on Windows). All of the code is Windows/Unix portable.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#43
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting -- what company was this for? Maybe you can market it on HN :)

BitMover/BitKeeper. Nice idea but too late, the market has gone to git. Which chaps my hide, git is an awful design, it's a tarball server pretending to be a source management system. Source management is basically an accounting program for programmers, it's suppose to faithfully log what you do. How does git do that when it has no concept of a file? Answer: it guesses about renames. And blame is slow because there a…

you probably could have captured a significant commercial marketshare but i highly doubt you could have beaten git in the open source world, since it was created by your highest profile customer who also happens to be the highest profile open source author (linus torvalds) in direct response to your licensing situation.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#44

I regret not taking it. Hummer-Winblad really wanted to give us some money but I couldn't figure out what they brought to the table. In retrospect, it was marketing, the money could have paid for marketing. And because they were invested they would have insisted on marketing. Did I mention we needed some marketing? We really needed some marketing. So, while it's very common to ask about taking investment, also look h…

This is a problem that a lot of engineering types fall into. We as technical people think that the best technology will win, but that's not true. The best technology that the most people have heard of for the most reasonable price will win.

The best technology where "best" means it actually does something useful for people, rather than whatever we, engineering types, think it is.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#45

I regret not taking it. Hummer-Winblad really wanted to give us some money but I couldn't figure out what they brought to the table. In retrospect, it was marketing, the money could have paid for marketing. And because they were invested they would have insisted on marketing. Did I mention we needed some marketing? We really needed some marketing. So, while it's very common to ask about taking investment, also look h…

What I wrote is going to be super harsh but I'm being purely analytical and this is not to be taken personally: You definitely don't sound confident at all and I feel like your problem is much deeper one where taking VC money or not isn't the issue. It's clear from reading you would've spent the money on non-marketing as the hindsight speaks for itself. Marketing is a small part of the equation but shouldn't be most…

> so consider it a lesson that can't be taught in schools

You do realize you condescend Larry McVoy, right?

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#46
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Git is both free AND viral. It's viral because if you want to use someone else's code, you have to use their source control system. Linux using git is a big deal in that respect (and yes I realize the kernel used BitKeeper :) ). And BK is (was, until last year [too late]) closed software that requires a paid commercial license to use. Pretty much a show stopper for open source contributors donating their free time.

Yeah, too late. Shoulda, coulda, woulda. There's some nice code in there though, I wish people would steal our libc stuff. Some really nice ideas in there. And a pleasant license so you can use it where ever you want.

I believe you. I've never used BK, but I did do some research before posting my comment. Couldn't find a single complaint on the technical end of things. Literally not one.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I wrote is going to be super harsh but I'm being purely analytical and this is not to be taken personally: You definitely don't sound confident at all and I feel like your problem is much deeper one where taking VC money or not isn't the issue. It's clear from reading you would've spent the money on non-marketing as the hindsight speaks for itself. Marketing is a small part of the equation but shouldn't be most…

> so consider it a lesson that can't be taught in schools You do realize you condescend Larry McVoy, right?

I think you mistook me for someone else. My name is not Larry McVoy.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I wrote is going to be super harsh but I'm being purely analytical and this is not to be taken personally: You definitely don't sound confident at all and I feel like your problem is much deeper one where taking VC money or not isn't the issue. It's clear from reading you would've spent the money on non-marketing as the hindsight speaks for itself. Marketing is a small part of the equation but shouldn't be most…

I'm plenty confident, in fact, too much perhaps. After all, I founded a company that has lasted 19 years (and technically still exists, we have some money in the bank). That company changed the world. No, we didn't win, but all the distributed source management systems came after us, we were first, they are copies of our model. We invented that space, clone/pull/push/commit are our verbs. We invented, in effect [1],…

I meant more from the investors angle. I definitely don't get any sense of confidence from the business point of view but I can see there is little doubt in your technical execution.

But there lies the problem. You are deeply attached with your ideas and product. You said yourself, you spent 19 years changing the world in this area but not satisfied. It makes sense why you would point to marketing as being the fault. I hope you can see it from a passerby's point of view and not take offense at what is being said like the other guy below reacted.

When I spent a good chunk of my 20s writing software that I thought would change the world, I was defensive, had a huge ego ("My idea changed the industry and I feel like others with VC money have stolen the lime light"), and just refused to let things fail.

I admire that you've found happiness in life. There's more to life then just running a business and making money. I think it's definitely ignored in our world.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#49
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investors understand that projections are fantasies and risk is present: do not worry about them. You are only truly forced to do things as a company if you lose decision making power due to reduced voting rights. To avoid this situation, there are numerous strategies available many of which are outlined in the book Venture Deals .

Thanks very much!

I would caution that the poster has maybe never raised over $5-10MM. This is a very early stage mentality and does not jive with investors as partners, certainly, there is truth in it, but it's not the crux.

Re: Ask HN: Do you regret taking investment?

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BitMover/BitKeeper. Nice idea but too late, the market has gone to git. Which chaps my hide, git is an awful design, it's a tarball server pretending to be a source management system. Source management is basically an accounting program for programmers, it's suppose to faithfully log what you do. How does git do that when it has no concept of a file? Answer: it guesses about renames. And blame is slow because there a…

you probably could have captured a significant commercial marketshare but i highly doubt you could have beaten git in the open source world, since it was created by your highest profile customer who also happens to be the highest profile open source author (linus torvalds) in direct response to your licensing situation.

Yeah, well. We did what we could. I've been beat up about the licensing and eventually saw the light, the whole thing is open source under the Apache v2 license.

As to the "direct response" stuff, so do you have that straight from Linus? Because that's not what he said to me and we were very close at the time, emailed or got on the phone daily.

I'm a little tired of the licensing stuff. It wasn't as bad as people made it out to be but I get it, it's a more fun story when someone is the bad guy. Can I ask you to let it go or is that too much?

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