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Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

root.co.za

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Re: Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

#161

Post by nroets »

s_dev wrote: post #45

People asking about what problem this solves haven't been to South Africa or Zimbabwe which in some ways are ahead of the West in creating cashless societies. The biggest bank is a phone operator and people can send each other money over the phone and from what I understand this is very common. Also interestingly most phones aren't smart phones. It's mostly analog. Banks have a serious incentive to create and encoura…

Let me counter with these facts about banking in South Africa:

1. Fees at most banks are high. (A basic account with no transactions typically have fees of several dollar per month).

2. If people are moving away from physical cash, its because of security concerns (theft and robbery), not liquidity.

3. Most transactions are done by credit card, debit order or Electronic Fund Transfer (EFT). EFTs are done between numbered banks account. Mobile to mobile phone transfers are still very rare.

4. People are stubornly loyal to their banks. If root fails, it will be cause of this.

Re: Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

#162

Post by strictnein »

Tharkun wrote: post #142
louwhopley wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by their "approval magic"? There are other fraud filters etc built into various places throughout the payments system.

I think parent is referring to 3-D Secure (3DS). This is basically an authentication step which delegates most of its implementation to your bank (or whoever your credit card provider is). I'm not sure what Standard Bank is doing with regards to 3DS, but it would certainly be neat if its implementation were programmable as well.

Yes, this more or less.

Re: Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

#163

Post by anigbrowl »

louwhopley wrote: post #54

Founder here :) Feel free to ask me any questions

First, good luck - it's a difficult space and I applaud you for trying something different. I have a few uncorrelated questions:

1) Is the API limited to types of transactions or do you host configuration information? For example, I've often wished for a bank account that would look at my outgoings and some criteria that I've set, and then allocate some monies to savings or investments on a percentage basis rather than an absolute number. Are those calculations something I'd need to do at my end and then send you a bunch of API calls to make the transaction, or would they run as bots on your server? Sorry if that's not very clear

2) Will you impose tight or narrow restrictions on who can open accounts? For example in the USA many banks require an SSN to open an account and won't accept an ITIN (another kind of tax ID sometimes issued to immigrants), placing millions of people outside the banking system and thus making it that much more difficult for them to pay bills etc.

3) Will your service have access to the SWIFT network for international transfers or are you subject to restrictions while you prove some sort of banking bona fides? I don't know anything about banking relationships in South Africa or so but I've noticed the US is very aggressive about limiting transaction access for anything that looks like it could be remotely connected to crime of any kind, and I have sometimes had the impression that US banks are very 'suspicious' of anything that might coincidentally pose a threat to their business model.

I want to wish you a lot of luck and am very excited to see where this might go. I've never enjoyed dealing with money or finance, and get no more enjoyment out of being paid than I do out of paying bills. Financial chores are about as much fun as cleaning a toilet and the idea of being able to reduce the amount of time spent on dealing with money without putting myself at financial risk sounds heavenly.

Re: Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

#164

Post by s_dev »

jamesrcole wrote: post #149
s_dev wrote: post #45

People asking about what problem this solves haven't been to South Africa or Zimbabwe which in some ways are ahead of the West in creating cashless societies. The biggest bank is a phone operator and people can send each other money over the phone and from what I understand this is very common. Also interestingly most phones aren't smart phones. It's mostly analog. Banks have a serious incentive to create and encoura…

Do you know of the sorts of benefits it has brought in those places?

Absolutely -- the police can be very corrupt in Zimbabwe so you don't want hard cash hanging around or it will be taken.

The actually official Zimbabwe currency can't really be taken seriously because of insane inflation rates.

US Dollars vary greatly in price. Small transaction fees are nothing to operate cashlessly for some of these people compare to the risk of trying to store cash.

Even India recently banned high denomination notes because they were so associated with drugs and illegal behaviour.

Re: Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

#165

Post by ledgerdev »

dheera wrote: post #146
louwhopley wrote: post #54

Founder here :) Feel free to ask me any questions

- Do you have programmable international wire transfers in the works? That would be an instant sell to me. My current bank requires me to show up in person, and then verify the transfer by phone, both of which require making time out of a busy schedule. - Do you have programmable virtual credit card numbers? - Have you considered virtual bank account numbers as well? For example, I have had issues with organizations…

> Do you have programmable virtual credit card numbers?

Marqueta can do this. You can issue CC's via api, and then fund them with Visa direct. It's amazing.

https://www.marqeta.com/

Re: Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

#166

Post by apostacy »

programbreeding wrote: post #154
louwhopley wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey (founder of Root here), our platform gives you full API access to, for instance, do any of the things you do on the normal banking interface through code - like initiating a transfer to someone else, or building your own recurring payments system using a simple cron job :)

I believe what apostacy meant was the ability to prevent a recurring payment from occurring without approval. I may have misunderstood what they meant but something along the lines of: a debit shows up in your account as pending, and you have X amount of time to approve or decline it. That way you are preventing a debit from even occurring in the first place, rather than having to fight your bank to get the money bac…

What I basically want, is to have more control. I want a similar amount of control as to what I have with paper money, or even virtual in game currencies.

Right now, the scale is not tipped in my favor. I would be happy to pay for it.

I understand that banks have reasons for things to be arraigned the way they are.

I would love to have a "personal firewall" level of control over my money. I'd like to see that Widget of the month club is requesting $50, and I can confirm/deny it.

I only signed up for a widget of the month because it seemed like a good idea, but they deceived me into thinking I could back out at any time, and then when I cancelled my account, they just "paused" it for three months.

We don't use the "banking" model for other resources that are supposed to be our property. An app on my phone isn't supposed to be able to delete my photos, and the accepted solution is not that I call some external entity to undelete them. I know that these examples are very different, but that is what I would like.

I can also simply block someone from contacting me if I want, without having to justify it to my isp. I want to be able to do that with my money. If someone disagrees with me doing this, and thinks I still owe them money, they can be free to sue me, or do some other sanctions.

Right now, I create virtual credit cards and only fund them enough to pay my recurring payments. I want to automate it.

95% of the time, recurring payments that fail for me are done in bad faith, and these actors will not make a fuss if they can't process their payments.

I know this is probably a pipe dream, and that there are already system I can use, and that our financial system is set up the way it is for reasons. But that's a pain point for me, and a lot of people. People would like to be empowered, and feel that they have control. I think, in the end, things won't really change. Most people will still pay legitimate charges.

Re: Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

#167

Post by sova »

jsudhams wrote: post #93
s_dev wrote: post #45

People asking about what problem this solves haven't been to South Africa or Zimbabwe which in some ways are ahead of the West in creating cashless societies. The biggest bank is a phone operator and people can send each other money over the phone and from what I understand this is very common. Also interestingly most phones aren't smart phones. It's mostly analog. Banks have a serious incentive to create and encoura…

One of the issue with cashless is that banks/financial service provided making money of of the money i.e. $100 making more than $100 with out adding any real value in fees (100 time circulation). I know time is money in most western countries but my place we do one crop a year and sit idle for 9 months. So time is not a money and we would rather give cash to a person get that much worth of a product. E.g. My sons sch…

Transfer convenience justice for all!

Re: Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

#168

Post by sjtgraham »

lol768 wrote: post #151
sjtgraham wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! Founder here. Currently in private beta, but if you're with Santander, Nationwide, RBS, Natwest, Ulster Bank NI, or IOM Bank I can give you access - sg@teller.io.

Forgive me for the naive question, but how does this stack up in terms of the legality of what you're doing? I'm aware of some limited exceptions that would allow you to do this sort of reverse engineering for interoperability reasons in the EU. Also, isn't it going to be reasonably fragile? There's nothing stopping the banks (other than [in my experience] their general inability to make technical changes at a reason…

Thanks for the questions:

The legal one was looked at by lawyers earlier this year. There were two points to consider:

- copyright infringement via reverse engineering

- "hacking" statutes, e.g. Computer Misuse Act 1990

They concluded that there are no concerns in terms of copyright infringement, we have devised many non-infringing techniques for reverse-engineering and use them wherever possible, not least because they are easier to work with. When it is not possible to use such a technique this is where the exemption kicks in for creating inter-operable systems. FYI "infringement" occurs when transforming a low level language, e.g. machine code, into a high level representation. Computer programs are considered literary works, and their authors enjoy the full protection afforded as such.

The hacking statutes are very broad and technically if you used my laptop to access your own email while I was away in the bathroom you would fall foul of computer hacking laws in the UK. They said action via this angle said is a low risk (despite lawyers being conservative by nature). Teller isn't actually liable anyway, as it does not "cause" the access, the user does. Can a user accessing their own bank account ever be considered unauthorized? Would a bank prosecute their own customers for doing so? Unlikely, given Yodlee has been able to operate without legal challenge for decades now.

In terms of breakage, bank APIs rarely change. Most do not ever. The most aggressively defensive and technically competent bank IMO is Barclays and it takes them months to ship something to mess with me. They also can't just simply break something there is a window where both versions are supported where they advise users to upgrade before forcing the matter some releases down the line.

Re: Root – Programmable bank account for software developers

#169

Post by pg_is_a_butt »

louwhopley wrote: post #54

Founder here :) Feel free to ask me any questions

so i'm in line behind someone paying with one of these cards, and i'm supposed to wait while gary pulls out his phone on the toilet and clicks the button to approve the transaction???

why are you doing this? you're ruining society.

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