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I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

theguardian.com

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Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#41

Post by devoply »

jolux wrote: post #33
hammock wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ought to continue to read past that. Because you missed his point. He goes on to basically question "ethics" entirely: >What did this tool start spitting out? Every ethnic stereotype you can imagine....People who liked Jay Z were more likely to like Obama – it was one of the statistical truths Facebook couldn’t be seen espousing. I disagreed. Jay Z is a millionaire music tycoon, so what if we associate him with t…

That's not questioning, that's rejecting wholesale without a proper argument as to why. And frankly I don't at all see the ethical analogy between luxury athleisure and payday loans, and it seems to me you'd have to be pretty damn fucking self-deluded to think they're remotely comparable.

it's a good that a demographic buys. that's the way that ethically bereft corporations see it. i would even guess that this is how zuck sees it. people who buy jay-z buy obama. people with lower income buy payday loans. there is nothing ethical about any of this unless you want to add the ethical dimension. corporations are expected not to. and yet the data is allowing them more and more to target these "opportunities".

i wanted to catch some flies over the weekend. i used some soap and vinegar as the vinegar attracts them and the soap breaks the surface tension to drown them. corporations act much the same way. perhaps we need to see them as predators rather than someone looking to solve our problems, much like flies should see me. i don't provide what they want, but they don't see it that way until it's too late.

we sell bad food to overweight people. facebook can help with that. we also sell diets to overweight people. facebook can help with that too. either we add an ethical dimension to business or quit criticizing marketers for doing what they are expected to be doing.

i would even go as far as to argue that a system based on desire is not a good system. as the case with the flies, we can be led to death through our desires and various drives that have another purpose, but have been subverted to achive different objectives. whether as individuals or as a civilization.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#42

Post by virtuabhi »

moomin wrote: post #11

Wow, I can't decide if this guy is more morally or intellectually bankrupt. Seriously, "sometimes data behaves unethically"? Data doesn't do anything. Not even analysis or deep learning does anything. People (or programs written by people) execute decisions on the basis of data. It's still the people being unethical. Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interest…

Of course data can behave unethically. For example, data might show that people of a particular race in a particular neighborhood have high concentration of bad credit scores. Though using this information to approve/deny loan applications might be illegal. And when algorithms are run on large datasets, are closed source, and their downstream effects are difficult to measure, then yes data/algorithms can behave unethically.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#43

Post by mschuster91 »

lucasmullens wrote: post #10
Mendenhall wrote: post #9

Ahh the old "so what" argument. So what if I can target recovering alchoholics with alchohol ads? So what if I target gambling addicts with my gambling platform? So what?

There are alcohol and gambling ads on Facebook? Those two in particular often aren't allowed on ad networks.

> There are alcohol and gambling ads on Facebook? Those two in particular often aren't allowed on ad networks.

Gambling? Loads of them, and for what it's worth Farmville and friends IIRC even invented their own virtual currency.

Alcohol I haven't seen yet but every major beer and spirits brand has its own Facebook page.

Ad networks usually forbid alcohol due to underage-drinking-ad-laws (which FB can avoid due to their real-name policy and them requiring you lots of times to submit a government ID) and gambling due to a host of even more country-specific laws (which FB can certainly spend a lot of lawyer money on to safely navigate them, given that gambling ads usually pay huge sums for well working spots). And I believe that CC processors for ad networks don't like both due to the same issue; with a giant like Facebook, no CC issuer can afford to not deal with them, so they trust FB to not get them in legal trouble.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#44

Post by pjmorris »

apozem wrote: post #20

> Let’s assume Facebook does target ads at depressed teens. My reaction? So what. Sometimes data behaves unethically. Stop right there. Data has no behavior. You behave unethically. Data informs a decision, but you are making the decision. Take responsibility.

Exactly. There is a long [0], long [1] history of people being held accountable for problems enabled by their carelessness.

[0] Hammurabi's Code, 229. If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death.

[1] Exodus 21:29 If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull is to be stoned and its owner also is to be put to death

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#45

Post by TillE »

NumberCruncher wrote: post #14
metastart wrote: post #4

"The fact that Facebook could easily throw the election by selectively showing a Get Out the Vote reminder in certain counties of a swing state, for example, was a running joke." Woah. They're asking to be regulated.

Exactly, like newspapers and TV channels. Oh, they are already in good hands...

Broadcast media can't microtarget like that. At best they can cultivate a certain audience, but it's an extremely crude tool in comparison.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#46

Post by acobster »

hammock wrote: post #24
moomin wrote: post #11

Wow, I can't decide if this guy is more morally or intellectually bankrupt. Seriously, "sometimes data behaves unethically"? Data doesn't do anything. Not even analysis or deep learning does anything. People (or programs written by people) execute decisions on the basis of data. It's still the people being unethical. Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interest…

You ought to continue to read past that. Because you missed his point. He goes on to basically question "ethics" entirely: >What did this tool start spitting out? Every ethnic stereotype you can imagine....People who liked Jay Z were more likely to like Obama – it was one of the statistical truths Facebook couldn’t be seen espousing. I disagreed. Jay Z is a millionaire music tycoon, so what if we associate him with t…

Well to answer his question: because in the examples of African Americas and Hispanics, there's a power structure with its roots in the racist history of American capitalism, and profiting off of that power structure is definitely less ethical than getting an affluent woman to spend some of her disposable income.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#48

Post by datashovel »

Animats wrote: post #40

Can you run an ad for Final Exit [1] aimed at depressed teens? If you ask Amazon "suicide how to", you get exactly what you asked for.[2] Is that wrong? [1] https://www.amazon.com/Final-Exit-Digital-2011-Self-Delivera... [2]

"Brawndo: The Thirst Mutilator. It's like a monster truck you can pour into your face."

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#49

Post by cjhanks »

I am surprised people are shocked by this. Personally, I live in Berkeley - within a 20 mile footprint you have a nice sampling of exorbitant wealth and abject poverty.

As you drive through you can see drastic changes of roadside advertisements transitioning between English, Chinese, and Spanish. In the poor areas of town bus stations are plastered with high-interest payday loans. Drive 5 miles North and you will see advertisements for expensive art/music events. Drive slightly more North and you will see endless advertisements for divorce and accident lawyers.

It would be a miracle if all of this store location/advertisement placement was coincidence.

It's such a shtark reality you can stand at the Bus Station, read the bus outside advertisements, and estimate if it's likely to be going where you are. But once you get inside the bus where fewer people of wealth can see, you no longer can.

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