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I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

theguardian.com

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Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#31

Post by kfkhalili »

rconti wrote: post #26
moomin wrote: post #11

Wow, I can't decide if this guy is more morally or intellectually bankrupt. Seriously, "sometimes data behaves unethically"? Data doesn't do anything. Not even analysis or deep learning does anything. People (or programs written by people) execute decisions on the basis of data. It's still the people being unethical. Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interest…

It might be more correct to say "data reveals things that might be politically incorrect to state in public (or advertise based on).

He actually says exactly that.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#32

Post by seanca »

Dumb article is dumb. Ex-product manager = / = Facebook exec, this person also hasn't worked there in four years. "Targeting emotionally troubled teens" without detailed explanation as to how someone could implies simplicity in the matter, but it's not like an advertiser is typing in "show my ads to emotionally troubled teens please."

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#33

Post by jolux »

hammock wrote: post #24
moomin wrote: post #11

Wow, I can't decide if this guy is more morally or intellectually bankrupt. Seriously, "sometimes data behaves unethically"? Data doesn't do anything. Not even analysis or deep learning does anything. People (or programs written by people) execute decisions on the basis of data. It's still the people being unethical. Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interest…

You ought to continue to read past that. Because you missed his point. He goes on to basically question "ethics" entirely: >What did this tool start spitting out? Every ethnic stereotype you can imagine....People who liked Jay Z were more likely to like Obama – it was one of the statistical truths Facebook couldn’t be seen espousing. I disagreed. Jay Z is a millionaire music tycoon, so what if we associate him with t…

That's not questioning, that's rejecting wholesale without a proper argument as to why. And frankly I don't at all see the ethical analogy between luxury athleisure and payday loans, and it seems to me you'd have to be pretty damn fucking self-deluded to think they're remotely comparable.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#34

Post by jasonmp85 »

metastart wrote: post #4

"The fact that Facebook could easily throw the election by selectively showing a Get Out the Vote reminder in certain counties of a swing state, for example, was a running joke." Woah. They're asking to be regulated.

Not a very good joke. I'd have considered it a moral imperative to act on that impulse.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#35

Post by virtuabhi »

apozem wrote: post #20

> Let’s assume Facebook does target ads at depressed teens. My reaction? So what. Sometimes data behaves unethically. Stop right there. Data has no behavior. You behave unethically. Data informs a decision, but you are making the decision. Take responsibility.

In your statement - "you are making the decision", "you" can be replaced by algorithms. Algorithms are taking decisions (e.g. giving loans, showing ads) based on data. Algorithms can have bias. Data can have bias.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#36

Post by andrewflnr »

apozem wrote: post #20

> Let’s assume Facebook does target ads at depressed teens. My reaction? So what. Sometimes data behaves unethically. Stop right there. Data has no behavior. You behave unethically. Data informs a decision, but you are making the decision. Take responsibility.

I think you and he have sort of the same point: data has no ethical orientation. If you unpacked that sentence, he would probably clarify it to "data behaves in ways that, if there was a human making that call, would be unethical".

What makes the situation interesting is that there's not necessarily a person that makes the decision to do potentially damaging ad targeting: if you want to prevent it, you probably have to specifically prevent it in each case. Is Facebook responsible for preventing every single unethical ad targeting? Given the unfeasibility of that, does this problem mean we should call it quits on targeted ads entirely?

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#37

Post by FridgeSeal »

moomin wrote: post #11

Wow, I can't decide if this guy is more morally or intellectually bankrupt. Seriously, "sometimes data behaves unethically"? Data doesn't do anything. Not even analysis or deep learning does anything. People (or programs written by people) execute decisions on the basis of data. It's still the people being unethical. Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interest…

> Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interesting that at least one marketer at Facebook seems to believe it does.

I suspect a large portion of this attitude comes from the fact that the marketers (tasked with enacting campaigns and strategies based on results of data science/machine learning), likely don't understand all of the statistical intricacies and pitfalls around underlying assumptions, and a lot of people already view data science as producing "magic" results (and assume that if it tools them so, it must be true).

Of course, this guy is likely morally bankrupt anyways, which doesn't help either.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#38

Post by empath75 »

hackuser wrote: post #22

I don't agree with his claims that the following are among "a long list of Truths That Cannot Be Stated Publicly". I don't think anyone would care; I care very much about racism and can't imagine anyone I know objecting to these. * "people who liked Jay Z were more likely to like Obama" * "Hispanics between the ages of 18 and 25 probably do engage with ads singing the charms and advantages of military service." (I'm…

Yeah, basically if you have any kind of oppressed category of people, you can take advantage of them by exploiting their vulnerabilities (lack of education, lack of access to credit, etc). If you aren't careful with how you use your algorithms, you can come up with all kinds of systems that reinforce systemic racism.

Re: I'm an ex-Facebook exec: don't believe what they tell you about ads

#39

Post by vmasto »

CalChris wrote: post #25
moomin wrote: post #11

Wow, I can't decide if this guy is more morally or intellectually bankrupt. Seriously, "sometimes data behaves unethically"? Data doesn't do anything. Not even analysis or deep learning does anything. People (or programs written by people) execute decisions on the basis of data. It's still the people being unethical. Big data isn't some magic wand that absolves you of moral responsibility, but it's extremely interest…

Skim thru his book. He definitely has morally bankrupt covered. Also, was he an exec at Facebook?

He was a Product Manager (says right there in the article).
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