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Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

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Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#121

Post by adrr »

matt4077 wrote: post #4
pizza wrote: post #2

Is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree applicable?

I don't know the answer to your question, but let me just point out how awesome the "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" doctrine is. There are very few countries where that idea is as much a force as it is in the US–it's theoretically possible, but courts often shy away from applying it. I think it's a testament to the integrity of the US court system that they routinely let people off the hook, even when it is proven that…

It doesn't work when the law enforcement just uses parallel construction to get untainted evidence. Illegal wiretap to get information on where to look for evidence.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#122

Post by mikeash »

vkou wrote: post #117
mikeash wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems incredibly paranoid. Let's say someone parks their car in front of my garage and blocks me in (and blocks the fire lane too), should I just wait it out and not call the police because somebody might die? This happened to a neighbor a few months ago. He called the police, and the only thing that happened was the car getting towed. How about if you get into a car crash but nobody's dying immediately, don't c…

If the driver is present when the cop arrives, the altercation can escalate to death. It takes two to argue, and you have no idea what the driver is going to be like, and what the cop is going to be like. It's not likely to happen, but you're also not likely to be murdered in a traffic stop. Yet, it happens. I believe you are legally obligated to contact the police in the event of a serious accident.

Turning on the stove or crossing the street can result in death. Should we perform those activities "with the expectation that someone may die"?

You're right that it's often a legal requirement to contact the police after a crash. But if "someone may die" then that seems like a good reason to break the law.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#123

Post by a3camero »

Zak wrote: post #116
taormina wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the lawyers should know that digitizing it means that they are liable and provably so.

I don't think lawyers generating paper documents, signing them and then denying their authenticity is a widespread practice.

There are very few disputes about authenticity of records. And communication between lawyers is often done on a "without prejudice" basis where it won't be introduced later as evidence. And despite the love of paper, lawyers do most of their communications through email. The printed paper record is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to law.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#125

Post by tcj_phx »

bspn wrote: post #68
tcj_phx wrote: post #3

Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14085230 S…

> Sometimes people call the police for help. Years before I met her, a friend of mine got out of control, and her family called the police (maybe her 'craziness' was because she was starting to go through menopause). The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything i…

> It sounds like she was having some sort of mental health episode - I wonder if it would have helped had the daughter requested an ambulance rather than the police?

The mental health system does a good job of making people's situations worse too. I think it's infinitely preferable to be locked up in jail than in a mental hospital.

> but by framing it as a medical emergency you can hopefully ensure the hammer is holstered when they arrive as they approach the incident as secondary support who will only intervene if there is real danger.

good point... When I called for the firefighters to come revive my girlfriend (benzodiazepines amplify opiates, fyi), the police were also dispatched. After the firefighters left, the police officers decided they didn't need to make things worse, and their crew disappeared into the night too.

This did not happen the second time I called 911. This could also have been the difference between big-city police and small-town police...

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#126

Post by logfromblammo »

coldtea wrote: post #103
tcj_phx wrote: post #3

Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14085230 S…

> Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. And yet, they manage to not be such bastards in o…

I know someone in the US who had to stop being a prosecutor because she "got sick of putting poor people in jail for no good reason".

In the US, those who aren't total bastards quit. Those that remain create a culture toxic to anyone with a conscience, and thereby perpetuate the vicious cycle. This is what makes it so hard to claw back from a corrupted government. Very few people have sufficient fortitude to endure corruption long enough to effect change from within.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#127

Post by cryptarch »

coldcode wrote: post #69
cryptarch wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your views on police are mostly appicable in the U.S. because the U.S. has (one of) the most militarized police force(s) in the Western world. Your views do not match my experience in the Netherlands at all. My largest irritation regarding Dutch police is that they seem incapable of helping with bike thefts (even though all bikes have a mandatory unique ID), and sometimes they give you a ticket for carefully…

Why would you leave such a pleasant country and come to ours (US)?

I wouldn't, I don't even consider the U.S. for vacations because the only way in is through TSA country.

If I want to have my balls fondled by men in uniforms I can just go to Craigslist. At least then I'll have a safeword.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#128

Post by bspn »

tcj_phx wrote: post #125
bspn wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes people call the police for help. Years before I met her, a friend of mine got out of control, and her family called the police (maybe her 'craziness' was because she was starting to go through menopause). The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything i…

> It sounds like she was having some sort of mental health episode - I wonder if it would have helped had the daughter requested an ambulance rather than the police? The mental health system does a good job of making people's situations worse too. I think it's infinitely preferable to be locked up in jail than in a mental hospital. > but by framing it as a medical emergency you can hopefully ensure the hammer is hols…

Yes, it sounds like the approaches may be slightly different. My wife has needed ambulance care on several occasions due to an ongoing medical issue, so I've got to know the teams pretty well and one of the cops told me that whenever a male calls an ambulance for a female in my county the 911 dispatcher is instructed to assume domestic violence is involved and send the police as the advance party. I think our house has been flagged as "safe" now, as even though the cops still turn up it feels like more of a tick-the-box exercise these days and they no longer come to the door with their hands on their holsters.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#129

Post by bogositosius »

geofft wrote: post #66
bogositosius wrote: post #29

This really just boils down to a local version of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_subpoena Administrative subpoena. This is common practice all over the country. Funny that they quote a former NYC prosecutor who seemingly forgot that the NYC district attorney offices issue self-generated pieces of paper saying "subpoena" on them, too. Must have slipped his mind. The only problematic part of this…

It's a little different: an administrative subpoena is authorized by law (an arbitrary agency cannot, in fact, just print the word "subpoena" on a piece of paper and make it a subpoena), and that law is subject, like all laws, to judicial oversight. HN may be most familiar with the administrative subpoena in the form of the National Security Letter, and such subpoenas have been fought in court. It's not great, to be…

Yes, federal administrative subpoenas are an altogether different ballgame. Those have teeth, even when not signed by a judge. But this is done at a local level, too. New York criminal procedure law even specifically allows district attorneys to self-issue witness subpoenas. No penalty for non-compliance is specified though, so to bring you on by force they'd still have to go to a judge for a material witness order.

I'm not saying I approve of the concept, but this is common practice, unlike what many posters in this thread want to tell themselves.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#130

Post by logfromblammo »

mikeash wrote: post #88
TallGuyShort wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people waive judicial oversight to make things go faster, and when that's not fast enough they just commit fraud, but it's not occurring to them that maybe they should break fewer laws themselves and choose fewer criminals to prosecute?

Then they end up unemployed. You see this pattern all over the place. Bosses want to break the rules but don't want to get in trouble for it. The solution is easy: give the workers goals that are impossible to meet without breaking the rules, while simultaneously telling them how important it is to follow the rules. Voila, your workers break the rules on their own initiative, and you're not culpable. Those who refuse…

That reminds me of that one time I was an Arstotzkan border crossing agent. The agents got paid by the number of people processed, and the party bosses kept adding new rules and requirements for processing people. So I had to alternate the days my family could eat with the days they could be warm.

It was that or break the rules. And a loyal Arstotzkan citizen would never do that.

(Papers, Please!)

Real-life systems are set up to encourage people to break the rules all the time. Consider it a dark pattern of governance.

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