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Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

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Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#71

Post by pjc50 »

fritzw wrote: post #40
Doxin wrote: post #13

> The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful force to bear against someone who has committed a crime. Only in america. > Their job is not to resolve domestic disputes Only in america. > Any time you call the cops on somebody, it should be done with the expectation that they may be arrested and taken to jail Only in america. Just because the American police force is awful and only real…

I absolutely agree with everything you said with one exception. > "Protect and Serve" Everyone thinks that the police's job is their motto. It was some strategic messaging, but they came up with that. Police weren't created to protect and serve. Going back to the foundations of the country's policing strategy, police exist to maintain order. That's why they arrest protesters, shoot unarmed guys who are noncompliant,…

> Going back to the foundations of the country's policing strategy, police exist to maintain order

Very un-Peelian policing. Could you give more background on how and when the foundations of US policing strategy were laid, because it seems to be very fragmentary and local?

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#73

Post by Broken_Hippo »

keithpeter wrote: post #11
Pyxl101 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

UK: policing is a bit different here but police officers do often refer people to what is left of Social Services and the local hospital when needed. In your location, if urgent intervention was required to help a relative in a situation like the one outlined in the grandparent post, what agency would be the best one to contact?

I'm from the states: Mental health situations are difficult. The only real options are calling an ambulance and/or the police (the police will often come with the ambulance). I was able to contact the hospital directly with my ex (he was schizo-affective), but that did depend on him being calm enough to willingly come with me.

Folks are often jailed on public disturbance and other charges instead of being taken to a facility - many facilities don't have enough space either.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#74

Post by Spoom »

Ah, I get it. The prosecutor's office wasn't getting real subpoenas from a judge (which would have been easy enough to get in most cases) because it would have required that the defense also have access to the testimony as well as the ability to cross-examine. This way, the prosecution gets an ace in the hole to use at trial or plea bargaining.

That has to be pretty illegal, right?

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#75

Post by emodendroket »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #7
tcj_phx wrote: post #3

Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14085230 S…

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

Intuitively I don't think it's right that small-town police are less likely to use force in situations where it is not called for. I might even assume the opposite.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#76

Post by TallGuyShort »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #51
infosample wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breaking the law by those enforcing it is meh?

That's the reality of an overwhelmed court system, they make choices to optimize. It's a system of trust, balanced by a Judge reporting abusive attorneys to The Bar, which means most subpoenas are actually what a Judge would sign. In the case of this Louisiana Prosecutor, it seems like perhaps the courts are so overwhelmed they can't even get stacks of pre-signed subpoenas so they write their own. And the article sta…

So people waive judicial oversight to make things go faster, and when that's not fast enough they just commit fraud, but it's not occurring to them that maybe they should break fewer laws themselves and choose fewer criminals to prosecute?

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#77

Post by wccrawford »

pc86 wrote: post #65

> The notice came from District Attorney Leon Cannizzaro’s office. His prosecutors are using these fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk to them — a tactic that defense lawyers and legal experts said is unethical, if not illegal. The fact that the DA's office, which does not issue subpoenas , can mail to witnesses a document which says "SUBPOENA" is bold lettering and threatens arrest, is not on its face obvio…

Beyond the fact that it should be illegal, it's stupid.

It's going to teach people that they might not have to comply with subpoenas because of all the fake ones. At the very least, people will be more inclined to wait until they have a lawyer before speaking with the police, which is the opposite of what they want.

But it's also likely to cause people to ignore real subpoenas, which will not only hurt them but also the court cases that they were supposed to testify at.

It's incredibly stupid.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#78

Post by Maken »

calgoo wrote: post #67
narag wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, it's not the same outside the USA. There's an entertaining TV show in Spain that depicts all kind of police situations, from domestic disputes to assaulting a drug capo's stronghold. I can also attest by direct experience that the cool attitude they show on camera is the same one they have when nobody's recording. In another show, we see a Spanish policeman as an observer in Miami and making inte…

It depends on which police force you are talking about as well. I live in Catalunya, and the local Mosos police force is the main police here. They have quite a few stories of bad hiring practices, silencing ex cops who speak up etc. However, I have also met good people trying make a difference, so I think it all comes down to who you talk to. This whole police problem in the US looks to me like a few bad people that…

That's because the Mossos have developed their own "code of conduct" about regularly beating protesters, immigrants, prostitutes and poor people in general.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#79

Post by _jal »

keithpeter wrote: post #11
Pyxl101 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

UK: policing is a bit different here but police officers do often refer people to what is left of Social Services and the local hospital when needed. In your location, if urgent intervention was required to help a relative in a situation like the one outlined in the grandparent post, what agency would be the best one to contact?

To be frank, my response would depend on resources. If the person in crisis were insured, white, and living in a nicer part of town, I'd get them to one of the local hospitals.

If they didn't have the resources required to ensure someone would care and I thought it was something the person could get through, I'd recommend sedatives and try to find an appropriate charity.

The only time I'd ever call the police where I live now is if the situation were already life-or-death. There are places with departments where the cops aren't such wildcards, but I don't live in one of those, and every time I've been involved in a situation where cops were introduced into it, at best they were useless.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#80

Post by cmdrfred »

zimzam wrote: post #46
cmdrfred wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, police arrive on the scene where someone is or was being assaulted and arresting the attacker isn't a desirable outcome?

That is generally sub-optimal. Domestic violence is rarely a one-time event, rather it is a pattern of the relationship (and often the violence is reciprocal, so arresting just one of the two doesn't make sense). Some form of social service intervention for the whole family would be far better than arresting one person. After all, somebody abusing someone else likely doesn't handle stress and anger appropriately: nob…

>After all, somebody abusing someone else likely doesn't handle stress and anger appropriately: nobody's life gets easier and more manageable after being arrested.

So longer prison sentences for domestic abusers then? Put them away long enough so the other party is forced to start their own life and no longer be in a situation where they are dependent on the abuser and thus unable to leave.

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