Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk • Hacker News Board

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#61

Post by jacquesm » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:10 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #4

pizza wrote: post #2

Is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree applicable?

I don't know the answer to your question, but let me just point out how awesome the "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" doctrine is. There are very few countries where that idea is as much a force as it is in the US–it's theoretically possible, but courts often shy away from applying it. I think it's a testament to the integrity of the US court system that they routinely let people off the hook, even when it is proven that…

> There are very few countries where that idea is as much a force as it is in the US–it's theoretically possible, but courts often shy away from applying it.

Here in NL it is very much in force and has led to some spectacular reversals in court. To the point where the police is now extra careful on how they get their evidence.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#62

Post by codefined » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:32 PM UTC

NoGravitas wrote: post #56

infosample wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting you chose those specific examples. Police killing black men in those instances did the opposite of what you claim. They turned orderly to disorderly.

That's because they don't exist to protect order as such . They exist to protect a particular social order.

Seems like an odd argument for the reason of such shootings. I think what they did actually exacerbated the issue more than helped keep a particular social order. Reminds me a little bit of a situation that occurred in a book I read whereupon events like this just caused more problems [0] (NSFW site, SFW story).

[0] http://storiesonline.net/s/46291/greenies

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#63

Post by grenoire » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:32 PM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #18

Doxin wrote: post #13

> The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful force to bear against someone who has committed a crime. Only in america. > Their job is not to resolve domestic disputes Only in america. > Any time you call the cops on somebody, it should be done with the expectation that they may be arrested and taken to jail Only in america. Just because the American police force is awful and only real…

The largest Dutch cities are at best medium-sized in total population and density compared to American cities, though, and a lot richer in wealth per capita. For example, using 2015 numbers, Amsterdam with 848k people (4.3k per sq mi) wouldn't place on the top 10 list of largest or densest American cities. San Jose, California at #10 has over a million people (5.3k per sq mi). New York City (#1) has 8.5 million peopl…

The nominal ratios spent on education actually do not matter much with a basic comparison because it is not a metric of how efficient that money is used and if citizens get equal benefits from the spending. I am quite certain the Netherlands is better at govt. spending than the US.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#64

Post by geofft » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:32 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #45

Did I mention that the US has become a police state? - 3 felonies a day (so 100% prosecutorial discretion) - NSA etc. mean they can access those 3 felonies if they want to, quite a bit into the past - 95% plea bargain rate (more of same) - prosecutors behave criminally Yay!

The US has also figured out how to avoid looking like a police state by talking the talk on merit and individual responsibility and so forth, and making sure to exercise its policing powers very rarely towards certain segments of the population. That isn't even the majority of the population, just the subset that the majority thinks they could / should grow into, and is convinced that if they don't, it's a personal failing and not any structure of society (cf. "temporarily oppressed millionaires").

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#65

Post by pc86 » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:35 PM UTC

> The notice came from District Attorney Leon Cannizzaro’s office. His prosecutors are using these fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk to them — a tactic that defense lawyers and legal experts said is unethical, if not illegal.

The fact that the DA's office, which does not issue subpoenas, can mail to witnesses a document which says "SUBPOENA" is bold lettering and threatens arrest, is not on its face obviously and flagrantly illegal, is shocking to me.

In a just world everyone in the DA's office who had a hand in this and had the authority to stop it would be charged with falsifying court documents, witness tampering, or whatever other crime(s) were committed in doing this.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#66

Post by geofft » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:37 PM UTC

bogositosius wrote: post #29

This really just boils down to a local version of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_subpoena Administrative subpoena. This is common practice all over the country. Funny that they quote a former NYC prosecutor who seemingly forgot that the NYC district attorney offices issue self-generated pieces of paper saying "subpoena" on them, too. Must have slipped his mind. The only problematic part of this…

It's a little different: an administrative subpoena is authorized by law (an arbitrary agency cannot, in fact, just print the word "subpoena" on a piece of paper and make it a subpoena), and that law is subject, like all laws, to judicial oversight.

HN may be most familiar with the administrative subpoena in the form of the National Security Letter, and such subpoenas have been fought in court.

It's not great, to be clear. We should have all subpoenas / warrants require individual advance approval by a judge. But there's a big difference between a type of subpoena authorized by the legislature, used by the executive, and subject to review from the judiciary (and subject to the entire law being ruled unconstitutional, in theory), and the executive inventing the idea of "administrative subpoena" on their own.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#67

Post by calgoo » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:38 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #22

Pyxl101 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

As others have said, it's not the same outside the USA. There's an entertaining TV show in Spain that depicts all kind of police situations, from domestic disputes to assaulting a drug capo's stronghold. I can also attest by direct experience that the cool attitude they show on camera is the same one they have when nobody's recording. In another show, we see a Spanish policeman as an observer in Miami and making inte…

It depends on which police force you are talking about as well. I live in Catalunya, and the local Mosos police force is the main police here. They have quite a few stories of bad hiring practices, silencing ex cops who speak up etc. However, I have also met good people trying make a difference, so I think it all comes down to who you talk to.

This whole police problem in the US looks to me like a few bad people that makes all cops look bad. Add to that, a biased hiring practice and coverup / protecting wrongdoers, and you get the situation you have in the US today where people don't trust the Police. It then becomes a worse and worse as the rift between civilians and police grows bigger.

I think the problem is really in management, where everything becomes political. No one wants to sound like they are soft on crime, so they all make speeches of fighting crime, war on drugs, etc. The wording says it all: "Fight Crime" and "War on drugs" are both very powerful messages, meaning more arms, more violence and not a peaceful solution. Add to this, the short time-spans of some of the turns that these people have in office, its no wonder that no one is trying to solve anything. It would take too long to see results, and they would not be in office or at least fear that they would not be in office. So, short turn patches get applied with a lot of force.

I don't know a solution, but at least we should look at removing as much of the political and financial pressures from police departments, let them hire better people (and yes they might leave after a few years, but that's just how things are now). We also need a cleaner and more transparent system to deal with wrongdoing, whatever happened to Internal Affairs? Are they still a thing? Have they lost power or have the political hands gotten involved there as well?

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#68

Post by bspn » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:46 PM UTC

tcj_phx wrote: post #3

Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14085230 S…

>Sometimes people call the police for help. Years before I met her, a friend of mine got out of control, and her family called the police (maybe her 'craziness' was because she was starting to go through menopause). The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail

It sounds like she was having some sort of mental health episode - I wonder if it would have helped had the daughter requested an ambulance rather than the police? Where I live, whenever you call 911 for an in-home emergency the police are tasked to arrive first to make sure the residence is safe and then the paramedics and fire crews come in after. You're right about the hammer and nail, but by framing it as a medical emergency you can hopefully ensure the hammer is holstered when they arrive as they approach the incident as secondary support who will only intervene if there is real danger.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#69

Post by coldcode » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:54 PM UTC

cryptarch wrote: post #53

Pyxl101 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

I think your views on police are mostly appicable in the U.S. because the U.S. has (one of) the most militarized police force(s) in the Western world. Your views do not match my experience in the Netherlands at all. My largest irritation regarding Dutch police is that they seem incapable of helping with bike thefts (even though all bikes have a mandatory unique ID), and sometimes they give you a ticket for carefully…

Why would you leave such a pleasant country and come to ours (US)?

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#70

Post by coldcode » Tue, May 02, 2017, 1:56 PM UTC

ouid wrote: post #34

bogositosius wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on your reasoning? I don't see how entrapment follows from this.

The prosecutor's office sends me a fake subpoena, I discover that it is fake and ignore it. They then send me a real subpoena, and not wanting to spend money on another lawyer, I simply assume that this one is fake too. In fact, without legal counsel, I have no real way of establishing which documents have official power and which don't. Now imagine they arrest me for failing to respond to real one they sent the seco…

Always check the signature on a subpoena - if its a judge you can check with their office and see if they really signed it. If its forged this will get whoever served it in big trouble.