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Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

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Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#31

Post by Maarten88 »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #18
Doxin wrote: post #13

> The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful force to bear against someone who has committed a crime. Only in america. > Their job is not to resolve domestic disputes Only in america. > Any time you call the cops on somebody, it should be done with the expectation that they may be arrested and taken to jail Only in america. Just because the American police force is awful and only real…

The largest Dutch cities are at best medium-sized in total population and density compared to American cities, though, and a lot richer in wealth per capita. For example, using 2015 numbers, Amsterdam with 848k people (4.3k per sq mi) wouldn't place on the top 10 list of largest or densest American cities. San Jose, California at #10 has over a million people (5.3k per sq mi). New York City (#1) has 8.5 million peopl…

That can't be right. And it isn't. Maybe you mixed up imperial and metric units?

Amsterdam has 12.7k people per sq mi[1]. Not NY-dense, but certainly more dense than San Jose.

I am sure that Dutch police get longer and higher education than their US colleagues, on average. But more importantly, I think the culture in the police here is completely different, they attract a different type of character. In the US, using the "soft" approach is not popular with politicians and voters, so the police seems to have developed into an "army-light", attracting mostly "tough guys" who like the use of force.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#33

Post by k-mcgrady »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #26
Doxin wrote: post #13

> The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful force to bear against someone who has committed a crime. Only in america. > Their job is not to resolve domestic disputes Only in america. > Any time you call the cops on somebody, it should be done with the expectation that they may be arrested and taken to jail Only in america. Just because the American police force is awful and only real…

"Only in America" is hyperbole. I'd buy "more frequently" but, realistically, the advice is still sound in any part of the world: don't call the cops if you don't want someone to get arrested. For those down voting, here are the stats from Australia, courtesy Wikipedia: "Data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) shows that during the 2009/10 year police took action against 375,259 people, up by 4.8 percent…

Downvotes are likely because those stats are completely useless in supporting your point.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#34

Post by ouid »

bogositosius wrote: post #32
ouid wrote: post #12

if I ignore a real subpoena now, could that be considered entrapment?

Can you elaborate on your reasoning? I don't see how entrapment follows from this.

The prosecutor's office sends me a fake subpoena, I discover that it is fake and ignore it. They then send me a real subpoena, and not wanting to spend money on another lawyer, I simply assume that this one is fake too. In fact, without legal counsel, I have no real way of establishing which documents have official power and which don't. Now imagine they arrest me for failing to respond to real one they sent the second time, I have been deceived by law enforcement into committing a crime, the very definition of entrapment.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#35

Post by forgotpwtomain »

bogositosius wrote: post #29

This really just boils down to a local version of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_subpoena Administrative subpoena. This is common practice all over the country. Funny that they quote a former NYC prosecutor who seemingly forgot that the NYC district attorney offices issue self-generated pieces of paper saying "subpoena" on them, too. Must have slipped his mind. The only problematic part of this…

This is almost certainly not true, it's not just a lie its 'fraud' at best.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#36

Post by mkempe »

MereInterest wrote: post #27
Pyxl101 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

I'd recommend taking a few minutes to read the Peelian Principles [1]. What you state is how police actions are undertaken in the US. It is not at all what it could be, what it should be. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

Thank you, I had never heard of these principles, and they clearly do not match the modern behaviour of American policemen.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#37

Post by cmdrfred »

minikites wrote: post #24
Pyxl101 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

>In my mind, actual thefts (that deprive people of property and rights) are a substantially higher priority than resolving social disputes. You do know that "domestic dispute" isn't just an argument and is usually a euphemism for assault/battery, right?

In that case, police arrive on the scene where someone is or was being assaulted and arresting the attacker isn't a desirable outcome?

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#38

Post by mdekkers »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #7
tcj_phx wrote: post #3

Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14085230 S…

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

...it should be done with the expectation that they may be arrested and taken to jail...

For the USA, add "shot and killed"

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#39

Post by bogositosius »

ouid wrote: post #34
bogositosius wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on your reasoning? I don't see how entrapment follows from this.

The prosecutor's office sends me a fake subpoena, I discover that it is fake and ignore it. They then send me a real subpoena, and not wanting to spend money on another lawyer, I simply assume that this one is fake too. In fact, without legal counsel, I have no real way of establishing which documents have official power and which don't. Now imagine they arrest me for failing to respond to real one they sent the seco…

I see what you're getting at. IANAL, but generally, the only purpose of an arrest on a subpoena is simply to compel your appearance in court. The judge could theoretically slap you with a contempt charge for not coming in on your own but that isn't likely. At least not the first time around. But still, I imagine it isn't pleasant to have guys in suits show up to take you to court in handcuffs, so probably best to deal with it before it gets to that point.

By the way, it's very easy to tell which subpoena actually requires compliance. It'll be the only one with a judge's name, signature, and (hopefully) a court seal on it. Anything lacking a judge's signature could theoretically be used as toilet paper. Ask anyone working at a big corporation's legal department. They will be quite familiar with these self-generated "administrative subpoenas." I'm sure Apple and Facebook throw these out by the dozens every month from various prosecutors and law enforcement entities and tell them to come back with a judicially issued version.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#40

Post by fritzw »

Doxin wrote: post #13

> The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful force to bear against someone who has committed a crime. Only in america. > Their job is not to resolve domestic disputes Only in america. > Any time you call the cops on somebody, it should be done with the expectation that they may be arrested and taken to jail Only in america. Just because the American police force is awful and only real…

I absolutely agree with everything you said with one exception.

> "Protect and Serve"

Everyone thinks that the police's job is their motto. It was some strategic messaging, but they came up with that. Police weren't created to protect and serve. Going back to the foundations of the country's policing strategy, police exist to maintain order. That's why they arrest protesters, shoot unarmed guys who are noncompliant, arrest people for selling cigarette singles. That subtle shift in how we perseve their job explains vertically all of their behavior as of late.

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