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Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

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Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#101

I would like very much to grab my pitchfork and point it menacingly at Yelp, but I have yet to see one of these stories with hard evidence. There are many, many stories of bad (and incriminating) behavior on behalf of Yelp salespeople over the phone, but I have never heard a recording. Even though most claims indicate that the harassing calls are repeated many times. Somebody record one of these calls and become Inte…

One thing that Yelp absolutely does do, I've seen it with my own eyes, is play with 'recommended' reviews based on whether the business in question is paying them. I can't provide hard links because it's a client of my wife's business. Specifically, a business had about 20 very positive reviews in total, all of them 'recommended'. A review that isn't 'recommended' basically doesn't exist; it doesn't count toward the…

>When asked directly, they just deflect talking about the opaque 'algorithm.'

This is precisely why "AI" cannot be trusted and why code must be publicly auditable.

Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#102

Via a bit of sleuthing, I managed to figure out what business this person is writing about. I could post a link to the Yelp page, but that feels a bit doxxy, so I don't know if it's appropriate. The business does have more one-star reviews than one might normally expect, but the texts of the accompanying reviews contain specific details of complaints, and the complaints are appropriate for the ISP/TV category. For ex…

>Absolutely atrocious. I have never had a worse experience with a company.

Comcast?

Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#103

I'm surprised that even on HN, people seem to unquestioningly accept that Yelp extorts businesses using reviews, where any other topic would be subject to a higher level of scrutiny. I've heard countless anecdotes about peoples' friend's account of how evil Yelp Sales is, but never any solid proof.

HN has audience from both sides of the pond. Smart people from both sides write insightful comments. Some people should add a disclaimer to their comments, as it's rather obvious they are related to the company mention in the news.

Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#104
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A business I used recently for some tree maintenance in my town had a 1-star Yelp review which was perplexing. In this case, the business and owner are well-known in the area as one of the best at what they do and top subject matter experts. While digging a little, I found that Yelp was highlighting only the four 1-star reviews and factoring only those into the score. Each of these reviews is responded to by the owne…

A common anecdote. Please provide the link.

You and your facts, proof, and blood-samply hocus-pocus. Yelp is obviously a witch, and these very sophisticated small business owners uncover their racket every month. Burn them!

Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#105
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people accuse Yelp of doing is pretty close to racketeering (or is? IANAL) and thus there is a high burden of proof. As a sibling comment points out, not every accusation needs detailed proof but some do and despite the years of accusations there isn't any definitive proof. Also, look at the information you've seen about bad practices at Uber recently. I'm aware my next statement is pretty weak reasoning, but if…

Uber's problems are internal or started with disgruntled internal employees, Yelp's problems are External, Completely different. >>What people accuse Yelp of doing is pretty close to racketeering (or is? IANAL) and thus there is a high burden of proof. Where there is smoke there is likely fire. I am probably not willing to believe it is corporate mandate with the evidence shown, however I can see a Wells Fargo style…

Exactly. When I heard the first accusations against Bill Cosby, I was skeptical. I thought "innocent until proven guilty". But then after accuser number 50 came around, I find the accusations very likely true. Even though there is no hard proof.

Without proof you may still be innocent in the eyes of the law, but if I was a young lady, I sure wouldn't be anywhere around him alone.

Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people accuse Yelp of doing is pretty close to racketeering (or is? IANAL) and thus there is a high burden of proof. As a sibling comment points out, not every accusation needs detailed proof but some do and despite the years of accusations there isn't any definitive proof. Also, look at the information you've seen about bad practices at Uber recently. I'm aware my next statement is pretty weak reasoning, but if…

In Italy, where racketeering is very common in the South, we have special laws and protections to fight it - because proving it, it is not easy at all. You get threats that are implied and not explicit. If "something happens" you cannot automatically ascribe it to the former threat. It should be the role of an investigative agency to look into that and discover the high burden of proof, not of private citizens.

I would think a class-action would be effective. He said/she said is tough, but everyone said/Yelp said becomes a different story.

Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#107

Via a bit of sleuthing, I managed to figure out what business this person is writing about. I could post a link to the Yelp page, but that feels a bit doxxy, so I don't know if it's appropriate. The business does have more one-star reviews than one might normally expect, but the texts of the accompanying reviews contain specific details of complaints, and the complaints are appropriate for the ISP/TV category. For ex…

Isn't it also possible that when you buy that plan from Yelp, they push your company more and that leads to more negative reviews along with positive ones? But as part of that agreement (they might not tell you they do it), they hide the negative ones (all or some, or maybe even only temporarily) so that your company thrives. If you thrive, Yelp thrives because they want your business to keep paying for Yelp and you are probably less likely to cancel if you see a bunch of 5 star reviews and few negative ones.

And maybe after a certain time they stop hiding the negative ones, or it could be as cynical as what the OP is sorta implying -- that Yelp begins showing all the negative reviews they were holding back once you stop paying? I'm not sure I believe Yelp is writing fraudulent negative reviews for companies because it would be so easy to prove and would be, well...fraud. But hiding negative reviews that were written by real people as long as you are paying Yelp does seem like something a company could justify to itself, however unethical it still is in my eyes.

Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were just discussing this with my wife yesterday. The very same story happened to our doula, who's very non-technical and she asked us what to do (we are both engineers). Short story: she had a profile on Yelp, almost 20 5-star reviews from former customers (who spend, on average, 2/3 months with her - so each star is a big deal). One day Yelp! connects with her proposing her to become a paid customer, how could t…

Yup, sounds about right. In my wife's correspondences with Yelp (via voice and e-mail) on behalf of her clients, they kept focusing on that word 'algorithm'....like it's some magical, mystical thing that nobody really understands or controls. That was the key word that was used in all of the bullshit deflections. Thing is, Yelp is absolutely dominant in this space, so we're all kind of stuck with it.

Not if they are exposed to the general public by way of recording / hard proof, as the original commenter said. Once people know they are lying scum, their dominance will fall.

Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence because there can be no evidence. Every single time this is shown with screenshots, Yelp says the same thing: that its proprietary algorith changes all the time. They get a free copout and all of its defenders on the web just parrot that statement. Lower-ranked reviews fly to the top? Algo change. Stars suddenly missing? Algo change. Positive reviews suddenly 'not recommended' Algo change. Saw in…

Note: I have no love for Yelp, but I have have an unquenchable lust for evidence-based claims. Of course there can be evidence. The changed-algorithm claims merely create a slightly higher bar for the evidence to be convincing. So far, no one seems to have presented evidence that even approaches credible, all we see are unsupported claims. People have sued Yelp for these alleged extortions, and they lose due to lack…

>Also, if this extortion were true, we'd be hearing about it from thousands of businesses, not one or two here and there.

If I'm a business, should I increase the likelihood that the public gives me bad reviews on yelp when I bring attention to this issue?

>Consider the Occam: [...]

That's a false dilemma. Yelp can push sales quotas upon employees without "knowing" that it's inducing them to post negative (and positive [for those who pay]) reviews. Just because they're not explicitly telling their employees to post negative/positive reviews doesn't mean that they don't do so through other means.

Your either-or is the standard Yelp talking point.

>without being caught red-handed

Because their employees are using Yelp's whistle blowing line.

Re: Business cancels Yelp advertising contract, negative reviews start pouring in

#110
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: I have no love for Yelp, but I have have an unquenchable lust for evidence-based claims. Of course there can be evidence. The changed-algorithm claims merely create a slightly higher bar for the evidence to be convincing. So far, no one seems to have presented evidence that even approaches credible, all we see are unsupported claims. People have sued Yelp for these alleged extortions, and they lose due to lack…

>Also, if this extortion were true, we'd be hearing about it from thousands of businesses, not one or two here and there. If I'm a business, should I increase the likelihood that the public gives me bad reviews on yelp when I bring attention to this issue? >Consider the Occam: [...] That's a false dilemma. Yelp can push sales quotas upon employees without "knowing" that it's inducing them to post negative (and positi…

> If I'm a business, should I increase the likelihood that the public gives me bad reviews on yelp when I bring attention to this issue?

How/why would customers give you more bad reviews if you could prove your business has received fraudulent bad reviews on Yelp? Those dots don't seem to sensibly connect.

> Yelp can push sales quotas upon employees without "knowing" that it's inducing them to post negative (and positive [for those who pay]) reviews. Just because they're not explicitly telling their employees to post negative/positive reviews doesn't mean that they don't do so through other means.

This is a good hypothesis for how it could happen; this is essentially what happened at Wells Fargo. But there's still the pesky lack of evidence for it actually happening at Yelp, where the evidence for it happening at Wells Fargo is considerable--loads of employees and ex-employees discussing it openly, tons of customer records showing accounts opened without permission, etc. That is a key difference that suggests the Yelp accusations are without much merit.

It's a foregone conclusion that some Yelp employees have done manipulative things to customers over the years, and maybe it's those isolated events that spur these occasional complaints, but there's no evidence of a widespread, systemic problem. If such credible evidence materializes, I will change my view, but I'll not apologize for waiting to accept the story until compelling evidence appeared. A tiny percentage of businesses making uncorroborated claims is an absurdly low standard for evidence.

> Because their employees are using Yelp's whistle blowing line.

This is another bare assertion without supporting evidence. If this were the case, where are all of the exposés from former Yelp employees who were pressured to do the extorting?

I probably ought not have engaged in this discussion, because I have no dog in this hunt. I should have remembered that if someone has arrived at a hard conclusion without evidence, then that is a demonstration that evidence is not important to them. I just get so exasperated when I see my peers accepting a stranger's story wholesale without a crumb of evidence. So it goes.

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