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Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

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Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#411

Post by literallycancer »

timthelion wrote: post #221
briandear wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there jail time for extreme left wing speech? Like Che Guevara, Mao, Hugo Chavez? Not arguing -- just genuinely curious how extremism is defined there.

You are very unlikely to go to jail for left wing speech. This isn't a matter of placement on a political spectrum though. The law is as follow: 1) No Nazi symbolism outside of a historic context. 2) No inciting racial hatred. 3) No expression of hatred against a protected minority (the wealthy are not a protected minority). These are very easy to prove, but none of them apply to normal left wingers. There are Islami…

5) was used to disband the DS? Although I guess you could say that was 2) and 3) too.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#412

Post by literallycancer »

timthelion wrote: post #50
ykler wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what the "anomalies" this site detects in Denmark, Finland, and France represent, but the site itself says that they don't necessarily represent censorship and that it has only confirmed censorship in the following 12 countries: Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, India, Indonesia, Greece, Sudan, Belgium, Cyprus and Korea.

Just FYI, Youtube is heavilly sensored in the Czech Republic (we have very strong laws against political extremism, like jail time for extreme right wing speech..). But I don't know of any actual domains that are blocked. The government doesn't need a great firewall to censor. They can simply slap a 2 year jail sentence on anyone who shares a right wing video and that's enough to get youtube to censor itself. Edit: I…

I just checked, and there is no apparent censorship of youtube going on (e.g. you can find Czech neo-nazi music without any issues).

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#413

Post by xg15 »

wav-part wrote: post #350
xg15 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Collective will has never solved anything. As always it will be technology. Technology is a tool. There are always humans behind it. (If nothing else, the people designing the algorithms for the AI overlords) Technology may help us to reach our goals, but in my opinion, it's rather useless if we're not even clear what our goals are. > At smaller scale it will be much more obvious how important these things are. And…

> I don't see why it would be different here. It would not. But then the water-poor would realize its better to be practicial than idiological. I believe in real life noone is all-poor. One as an individual or group has always something to offer. The water-poor/everyone would realize that there is cost of socialism which not everyone can afford. > How does that make any sense? Ancap are not happy with current state o…

Thanks for taking the time to explain that stuff, btw. I don't agree at all with the philosophy but I think it's good to understand the logic behind it.

>The water-poor/everyone would realize that there is cost of socialism which not everyone can afford.

Except there are places today where there is a right to clean drinking water for everyone - presumably you and me are living in such places. (That's why I was saying "in shitty countries"). So the "not everyone can afford it" point is not an universal truth. Of course it's true if you build a system that wants to make it true.

>Ancap are not happy with current state of inequality which is due to violence. Inequality due to trading-power is "ok". Though not bundled with ancapism, wars against current market leaders are heavely encouraged and just occur naturally.

I suppose the underlying assumption is that such wars can be won relatively easily and painlessly - I find that assumption highly questionable.

>Though I concur this is not what I said.

Indeed you didn't. My point was that your assumption only holds in time spans that are not practically relevant.

>Current systems do not distinguish between powers who break NAP and who does not.

I don't see why violence is seen as such an important point here. There are lots of other ways I can abuse power that don't involve physical violence.

E.g., suppose I own some land that is crossed by a river that happens to be the major water source for some downstream communities. Now I can build a dam and make all kinds of outrageous demands to the communities and there is little they could do:

- they could try to find alternative water sources - which may be difficult or infeasible, depending on terrain. If I'm determined, I might also make it difficult by bringing as many relevant water sources under my control as possible.

- they could seize my dam or try to drive me away with force - which would violate property ownership and the NAP.

- they could give in to my demands, proving that my interests clearly outweigh the interests of the downstream citizens. Sucks to be them.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#414

Post by azangru »

agsamek wrote: post #368
azangru wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are those comments that you are talking about online publications of some established Russian media outlets, or are they just comments of some random visitors to the sites? As for invasion and NATO aggression, I think it’s worth reminding oneself that there are several opposite narratives battling each other and pushing different agendas — God knows whose. Russia is certainly meddling in Ukranian affairs (and it’s re…

Sorry, I didn't mean to start this discussion. I just wanted to point out that Internet due to its global nature is vulnerable to attack on truth by actors with enough money and defined agenda. This kind of attack can be similar to spam/ddos attack in its nature. So basically exploiting Internet freedom. If we don't build in mechanisms to prevent this, we will loose anyway. Even if it was possible to keep Internet fr…

Thank you for your kind words. There is just one small correction I wanted to make. I created an account here a couple of weeks before this topic, to express my incredulity at an unwarranted (in my opinion) criticism of an example of JavaScript code written in functional style. But it is true that this is my longest discussion on Hacker News. Thank you for that, and please forgive me for steering the thread this way. I hope I was not being too uncivil.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#415

Post by literallycancer »

teh_klev wrote: post #405
jerheinze wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, that's anti-piracy judgements. How does that change the fact that Denmark censors http://thepiratebay.org ?

Read what was just explained to you: > that's anti-piracy judgements Not the same as censorship.

Linking is not a crime (or is it in Denmark?).

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#416

Post by Strom »

azangru wrote: post #410
Strom wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience the common reason among Russian parents who send their children into local language schools and want their children integrated cite "a better future" and economic opportunities. Also, you make a sarcastic remark regarding not kicking people out as if that is what everyone does and doesn't require special mention. It just so happens that moving people forcibly around has been the modus operandi of var…

> and frankly for our little nations it's also a case of fighting for the survival of our cultures. Please forgive my insolence in asking this, but why do you feel that survival of a culture is important? I have heard these sentiments frequently from people from various former Soviet republics (the Baltic states and Ukraine being the prime example), and they have always puzzled me, because I, though Russian, can not…

This is definitely an interesting question which I've pondered myself before. The best answer I have is choice. In the Russian Baltics case existing habits were prohibited and new ones indoctrinated forcefully. People killed & shuffled around. In the Western case new habits are acquired willfully [1] and old ones die naturally.

In practice, I would say that USA has achieved more cultural assimilation with the last 25 years than Russia could in the ~250 years of occupation. In essence Hollywood has won the hearts of the people in ways that force never could.

There are those who don't like the USA influence either, because it does reduce our own identity. For me, it's not as big of a problem as long as we have control over the changes made.

To sum it up, it's about free will & independent thought.

--

[1] A cynic might say that the USA influence isn't by choice and that it's merely an illusion of choice. That while the Western cultural assimilation doesn't share methods with other attempts, it's hard to resist due to the volume & production quality of the Western media.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#417

Post by literallycancer »

azangru wrote: post #65
agsamek wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great summary. One missing thing is that goverments are getting better at using free Internet for propaganda. In Poland we have open Internet so far, but we are increasingly exposed to Russian goverment news/comments that are factually wrong but repeated consistently. Basically - we see the same thing we already saw with free market. It is not free by itself. Countries and companies can use it to establish monopolies…

Being a Russian, I am naturally very curious about this idea of the Russian propaganda getting a stronger and stronger influence over the minds of people in other countries. Could you kindly elaborate on the following issues that mystify me: - Where do people get the Russian news and why do they care about what Russia has to say? I mean, I don't follow Polish news (or French news, or German news, etc.); so why would…

>Where do people get the Russian news and why do they care about what Russia has to say? I mean, I don't follow Polish news (or French news, or German news, etc.); so why would people get their information from the Russian outlets?

Russia will provide funding to various conspiracy nuts, contrarians and such, who then write and/or translate shitty "news" articles that are then consumed by people that want someone to confirm their bias.

They also pay people (located in Russia, mostly) to post pro-Kremlin opinions on the internet, and if you are not aware of that, it may seem like there's a lot of people that disagree with the "mainstream media" that are "lying to us".

Another thing they do is try and control the expat organizations of Russian speaking minorities in the West (and Central Europe too). These people are often relying on Russian language news so they are easier to influence.

They also like to finance eurosceptic political parties (e.g. National Front[1]), to try and break-up the EU.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)#Russia...

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#418

Post by cookiecaper »

vacri wrote: post #408
cookiecaper wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One person's freedom to speak must be balanced with another person's freedom to exclude that speech from their private life. Private folks having the ability to go places where they can ignore the people they've chosen to ignore is an important part of why free speech works at all. That's not how it works. The "public square" is supposed to be open to all opinions. If you want protection, you have to retreat into th…

> Ironically, rather than unifying mankind and increasing sympathy and understanding, we are using network technology to maximize comfort by crafting artificial "safe spaces" where patrons never even have to be exposed to thoughts they dislike. That's bad. This is a bad characterisation; it was much easier to ignore stuff you didn't like before the internet. The internet is also not to blame for politics - while it h…

They weren't able to dismiss people who resisted by doing the equivalent of "unfriend"ing them. If you are in the same physical space with someone, the only way you can enforce silence (rather than just pleading for it) is to leave or compel the property owner to exert force against the other guest. In the public square, no one can exert this force over complaints as petty as "I don't like what he's saying".

Some types of public demonstrations or forums require permits and the like, but the public square is still available to anyone with a point to make, and if you're in the same physical area/space, you're going to see it, like it or not.

As the bulk of our discussion offloads from public spaces or common community gathering places to curated digital gardens where no one knows the difference if you unfollow their feed, we lose the forces that make it difficult to ignore each other. That makes it much easier to stay closed-minded.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#419

Post by timthelion »

literallycancer wrote: post #412
timthelion wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just FYI, Youtube is heavilly sensored in the Czech Republic (we have very strong laws against political extremism, like jail time for extreme right wing speech..). But I don't know of any actual domains that are blocked. The government doesn't need a great firewall to censor. They can simply slap a 2 year jail sentence on anyone who shares a right wing video and that's enough to get youtube to censor itself. Edit: I…

I just checked, and there is no apparent censorship of youtube going on (e.g. you can find Czech neo-nazi music without any issues).

You are right that it the censorship is incomplete to the point of sillyness. It is TRIVIAL to find extremist content that isn't blocked. That doesn't mean that some videos are not blocked though.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#420

Post by timthelion »

literallycancer wrote: post #411
timthelion wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are very unlikely to go to jail for left wing speech. This isn't a matter of placement on a political spectrum though. The law is as follow: 1) No Nazi symbolism outside of a historic context. 2) No inciting racial hatred. 3) No expression of hatred against a protected minority (the wealthy are not a protected minority). These are very easy to prove, but none of them apply to normal left wingers. There are Islami…

5) was used to disband the DS? Although I guess you could say that was 2) and 3) too.

Ds is still going strong isn't it? http://www.dsss.cz/

Wait, you're right https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%9Blnick%C3%A1_strana it was banned as a threat to democracy. That lasted long...

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