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Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

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Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#191

Post by agumonkey »

ardaozkal wrote: post #180
mino wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More than 63% voted yes in Germany for instance. I also was baffled about the results of the Turkish vote abroad. How is it possible that, in many EU states, they won which such a majority? I would have expected expats to be generally more liberal/globalist/progressive.

When you don't feel the effects of your vote, you don't care about what you vote. I feel like this was the case of the referendum.

Haha, doubly amazing comment. That's indeed a very very possible reason. Same thing happened in France, people not impacted by a new airport all voted for it, people near the landing lanes voted against.

Also, there was an article about learned helplessness, how to craft depression into animals by confusing their brain when searching for way to stop suffering. Very similar root cause.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#192

Post by Eupolemos »

fulafel wrote: post #44
beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

The voters elected and support an autocratic leader, however wonderful people they may be. It's not just about Erdogan.

Turkey has a very harsh rural/cosmopolitan split, just like the US has.

On top of that, the last election (the turn the President into Sultan) had massive fraud and any critical media has been jailed.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#193

Post by cryptarch »

nebabyte wrote: post #140
mjburgess wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is this treats the government as a single entity with a uniform will: yes, if you do that, then the government is merely failing to act rather than deliberately censoring anything. However the government isnt a single entity, it is many smaller kingdoms. And The King is censoring one of his princes internally: preventing the EPA from releasing data it would like to.

We're not a fucking monarchy. The entirety of the executive branch serves at the pleasure of the president. And he's entirely within his rights to shut programs down; that isn't censorship. Learn your definitions lest you serve as a strawman for the other side of the argument.

Erdogan is within his right to censor.

Does that mean he does not censor?

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#194

Post by pikzen »

hollander wrote: post #145
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a major issue with Turkey is that there is a large non-secular voting bloc. Historically, that has been kept in check by periodic coupes by the Kemalist military. However, Erdogan has succeeded in taming the military (as demonstrated vividly by the failed coupe). Thus, the non-secular voting bloc has escaped the historic check. I am afraid, Turkey will become less secular in the next few years. In addition, t…

Well it seems the majority is not that big. He won by a small margin, while controlling all the media. If it had been a true free election, I bet he would have lost this referendum. And if you look at the demographics, people in cities voted against, countryside pro. Turkish people living abroad voted pro Erdogan. I bet most of those people came from the countryside in Turkey.

Win with 75% and everyone knows you cheated. With 51%, you leave just enough doubt for it but to be obvious.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#195

Post by ardaozkal »

Curnee wrote: post #43
beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

I play video games from a young Turkish woman. She goes to gigs, nightclubs, drinks and socialises. She hits on guys and they hit on her. She is indistinguishable from any western 20something. I was on a voice call with her the night of the supposed coup, and listened to her and her family angrily lemmenting the administration. It seemed even on the night of they knew something was fishy. She lives in Istanbul, and i…

As a Turk, I'm actually happy that we were told that we can't join at all due to the referendum results. Not for me, I see myself similar to the friend you talked about, with a western culture, wanting to get off but failing, but for Europe. Allowing the 51% to roam around Europe would seriously damage the level of culture and freedom you have reached.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#196

Post by kyriakos »

ardaozkal wrote: post #172
forvelin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it is just some random court order, maybe somebody edited page of Erdoğan to add some insults, which gave ideas to some judge to get government reputation.

This, maybe? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Recep_Tayyip_Erdo...

probably, but if that's the case their reaction is a bit late..

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#197

Post by azangru »

fapjacks wrote: post #105
azangru wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a Russian, I am naturally very curious about this idea of the Russian propaganda getting a stronger and stronger influence over the minds of people in other countries. Could you kindly elaborate on the following issues that mystify me: - Where do people get the Russian news and why do they care about what Russia has to say? I mean, I don't follow Polish news (or French news, or German news, etc.); so why would…

Just to give you one answer, at least in the United States, a not insignificant number of people read or watch RT.com, and -- this is really terrible, but it's true -- they aren't aware that "RT" stands for "Russia Today" and is basically a pro-Russian news outlet. I'm not sure how you folks view Russia Today, but at least in the United States, people that know that "RT" == "Russia Today" consider it very pro-Russian…

I must confess that I too watch RT sometimes. I was initially drawn to them by the total openness of their broadcasting — I could go to their website and either watch RT America live or watch recordings of any of their major programs. I have never seen other networks do so (perhaps with the exception of Bloomberg) — and I looked at CNN, Fox, and BBC at least. So at least for this RT deserves some credit.

Now, having watched RT from time to time over a certain period, I learned to distinguish between the shows that blatantly push the Kremlin agenda, and others that do not necessarily do so and are more interested in being a non-mainstream platform of inquiry into the world affairs, and of criticism of the world policies rather than being a carrier of the Russian point of view.

Also, I couldn't help wondering about what it is that ostensibly makes RT so different from other media networks. It seems to me that if RT is propaganda (which it very well may be) then so is CNN, or MSNBC, or Fox, or even BBC. I don’t know. Perhaps, despite all my attempts to resist, I am infected by the Russian propaganda beyond cure.

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#198

Post by [deleted] »

fapjacks wrote: post #105
azangru wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a Russian, I am naturally very curious about this idea of the Russian propaganda getting a stronger and stronger influence over the minds of people in other countries. Could you kindly elaborate on the following issues that mystify me: - Where do people get the Russian news and why do they care about what Russia has to say? I mean, I don't follow Polish news (or French news, or German news, etc.); so why would…

Just to give you one answer, at least in the United States, a not insignificant number of people read or watch RT.com, and -- this is really terrible, but it's true -- they aren't aware that "RT" stands for "Russia Today" and is basically a pro-Russian news outlet. I'm not sure how you folks view Russia Today, but at least in the United States, people that know that "RT" == "Russia Today" consider it very pro-Russian…

[deleted]

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#199

Post by xg15 »

cies wrote: post #15
matthewmacleod wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "decentralise"? Smaller-scope government at a local level? Anarcho-syndicalism? I suspect many of the same issues would appear.

> What do you mean by "decentralise"? Smaller-scope government at a local level? Anarcho-syndicalism? Yes. > I suspect many of the same issues would appear. Nope. When democracy is small enough, the leaders are very close to their voters. This changes everything. See small democratic countries, they do much better at being democratic! I think we can make it smaller, and have the democratic process at neighbourhood/vi…

That sounds susceptible to a lot of "tragedy of the commons" problems. It's hard enough to make the top-10 nations collaborate against climate change - good luck with hundreds or thousands of small communities.

Similarly, this looks like a world in which few rights or standards could be taken for granted, because everything is decided in local committees or "multilateral" deals between some groups of communities: Whether you'll be allowed to trade with or travel into another community will depend on the specific rules and agreements your and the other community decided to take part in.

In those negotiations, communities with natural advantages will likely be able to make better deals and increase their advantage, which may lead to a growing inequality between communities.

Finally, who is going to run large-scale infrastructure like roads, water, the electric grid, the internet, etc? If history is any indication, some gib private actors or a small number of powerful communities. Other communities will have to negotiate with them to be allowed access to the infrastructure - which is great for the private actors because this means there is absolutely no one who has any leverage over them...

Re: Wikipedia blocked in Turkey

#200

Post by angry_octet »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #40
beloch wrote: post #31

I'm a canuck who has worked with Turks and has visited Turkey. They're a wonderful people from a beautiful country with a real problem of a person in power. Turkey is almost entirely Muslim, yet they produce alcohol and tolerate its consumption within their borders, even by their own people. Let that fact sink in for a moment. Erdogan is subverting the premier secular democracy of the Islamic world, but nobody seems…

I think a major issue with Turkey is that there is a large non-secular voting bloc. Historically, that has been kept in check by periodic coupes by the Kemalist military. However, Erdogan has succeeded in taming the military (as demonstrated vividly by the failed coupe). Thus, the non-secular voting bloc has escaped the historic check. I am afraid, Turkey will become less secular in the next few years. In addition, t…

The majority of rural voters anyway. In the latest voting he had low support in major centres. His control of the media is key to controlling the public vote, especially in rural areas. So supporting the free press, and anti-censorship technology, is a great way to support democracy in Turkey.
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