Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis • Hacker News Board

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#91

Post by 3131s » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:18 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #68

People who have poor understanding of human nature will consider this an evidence of sexism. Think for a minute about why "Fifty shades of grey" is popular among female readers. If there are many stories are filled with males competing over resources and women (in the form of violent criminals kidnapping women and brave heroes rescuing them) then might it be that these kinds of stories are what people are looking for…

> Try to imagine a story about a weak man who cannot defend himself against a gang of three women who kidnap him, only to get saved by his brave girlfriend, who upon rescuing him promises him to stay by his side for ever.

What's wrong with that story? It'd be more interesting than the inverse actually, because it's plausible but less played out.

Here's a story not so dissimilar if you don't believe it's plausible. Sounds like a script that would write itself:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/three-women-k...

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#92

Post by tomp » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:21 PM UTC

appetizer wrote: post #67

artursapek wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it sexist if it's reflective of reality? Men commit more aggressive crimes than women by far.

But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that isn't an absolute. Men's efficacy at aggression is greater, when it happens, and that is what gets reported. I would say most of the research in this area is in abusive relationships. Where only heterosexual abuse from man to woman is noticed and acted on, which greatly distorts reality and cultural expectations. Many men are physically abused by women, and this is unde…

Yes, and women commit the majority of infanticides.

Still, doesn't change the fact that most violent agressors (and victims of violent crime) are men.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#93

Post by EGreg » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:21 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #68

People who have poor understanding of human nature will consider this an evidence of sexism. Think for a minute about why "Fifty shades of grey" is popular among female readers. If there are many stories are filled with males competing over resources and women (in the form of violent criminals kidnapping women and brave heroes rescuing them) then might it be that these kinds of stories are what people are looking for…

Actually there are lots of strong female leads now. It all started, I think, with Joss Whedon (Buffy) and Robert Taper (Xena). Women used to watch that much more than Hercules etc.

Now here is the thing... this is all wishful thinking. And the strong female lead is very much exceptional and stereotyped. She is just really strong and skilled somehow. Nearly all the other women are still weak. Once in a while her skill "rubs off" on her companions but the average woman is still weak.

And this is just about strength and/or fighting skill. How about intelligence? There is a movie now called "Gifted". Same thing - a fictional story about a lineage of women with exceptional gifts in math. None of the other women are portrayed this way.

In other words, whenever a woman is portrayed in fiction, even if she is stronger, more skilled, more resolute, more intelligent etc. than men, she is an exception.

There are a few exceptions, such as Fast and Furious, who just cram their movies chock full of two really exceptional women. But then they also cram them chock full of feats, explosions etc.

Where are the popular movies or literature where nearly all the women are routinely stronger or more intelligent than men at things?

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#94

Post by dahart » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:24 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #65

dahart wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a valid point of logic. The only problem is that in reality, many many of those books actually were racist. Slavery and racism were in fact culturally acceptable in the United States for a period of time, it is not at all a stretch to hypothesize that the writing of the time reflected that fact. One might even argue that to assume otherwise would be extremely illogical.

Ok, but the conflation is still wrong. A tract by John Brown about the evils of slavery would conflate the two without racism, while a racist screed by a Southern manner owner might use "servitude" or some other euphemism. The question isn't whether racism was common (yes, obviously) it's whether a specific language correlation reflects a racist author or work about a racist society. More broadly, this is a case of "…

Conflation of what? The conflation was @tomp's straw man example, @zebrafish and @artursapek didn't conflate anything nor presume that word frequencies equal racism.

It's true that correlation is not causation. It's true that books that use the words 'black' and 'slave' doesn't say anything about whether they're racist. Nobody in this thread was saying otherwise.

It's also true that the history we actually have is one filled with real racism and writing about real racism. It is not one that had a majority of John Brown writing about the evils of slavery. This isn't speculation, we have a historical record and this has already been demonstrated.

Bigger picture, @artursapek asked an interesting question, is a body of literature sexist if it accurately reflects society? Men do commit more crimes, is it sexist for there to be more writing about men committing crimes than women?

@zebrafish answered with an interesting answer -- we might consider it somewhat sexist because our society is still somewhat sexist. If the degree of sexism in literature and in society are the same, then is the literature sexist on it's own? Maybe it is.

Both are hypotheses, and in my book it's perfectly fine to ponder hypotheses. Neither one said something I would presume to call "wrong".

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#95

Post by tomp » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:24 PM UTC

ue_ wrote: post #45

shouldbworking wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shhhhhh! Theres no room for reality in here, were pretending that gender is a made up sociological concept

To my knowledge, gender is thought of as a complex of at least two aspects: those differences between what is thought of as masculine and feminine, and the roles assigned to genders. In these cases, gender pertains to the ideas of gender identity and further gender expression. In other cases, gender is also thought of as including or being inextricably related to biological sex. Gender isn't "made up" in the same way…

The problem with "gender" as a concept is that they hijacked existing words ("man" and "woman") that were previously used for "sex". This can be clearly seen by trying to define these words without reference to sex - you can't except by defining them recursively ("men are people who identify as men"), in which case, I think a better choice would be to invent new words for this new concept.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#96

Post by dahart » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:25 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #85

dahart wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a valid point of logic. The only problem is that in reality, many many of those books actually were racist. Slavery and racism were in fact culturally acceptable in the United States for a period of time, it is not at all a stretch to hypothesize that the writing of the time reflected that fact. One might even argue that to assume otherwise would be extremely illogical.

racist ==> "black" correlates with "slave" "black" correlates with "slave" =/=> racist

Correct, you're absolutely right. Nobody said otherwise.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#97

Post by EGreg » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:25 PM UTC

paulddraper wrote: post #90

hasenj wrote: post #68

People who have poor understanding of human nature will consider this an evidence of sexism. Think for a minute about why "Fifty shades of grey" is popular among female readers. If there are many stories are filled with males competing over resources and women (in the form of violent criminals kidnapping women and brave heroes rescuing them) then might it be that these kinds of stories are what people are looking for…

Unfortunately, every single difference of any significance is often took to be sexist and (of course) wrong sexist. Why are the top 100 chess players men? Sexism. Why are there more male than female programmers? Sexism. In non-romance movies, why are there more male leads? Sexism. There is legitimate wrongful sexism, but they aren't usually found in first world countries. It's as if we ever agreed there was a signifi…

Actually there is a very good biological explanation for why this is the case: men are more varied than women. Because until the modern era men were expendable and the victors impregnated the women for the next generation.

http://www.denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#98

Post by badsock » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #68

People who have poor understanding of human nature will consider this an evidence of sexism. Think for a minute about why "Fifty shades of grey" is popular among female readers. If there are many stories are filled with males competing over resources and women (in the form of violent criminals kidnapping women and brave heroes rescuing them) then might it be that these kinds of stories are what people are looking for…

That plot would fit into, say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which had a viewship in the millions) no problem.

Also, if you're going to say things like "natural difference between men and women that are implicitly understood by people" (down thread), you're going to have to bring some double-blind, peer-reviewed evidence.

This is a controversial subject that's overflowing with armchair sociologists. Right now you're indistinguishable from them.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#99

Post by hasenj » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #81

hasenj wrote: post #68

People who have poor understanding of human nature will consider this an evidence of sexism. Think for a minute about why "Fifty shades of grey" is popular among female readers. If there are many stories are filled with males competing over resources and women (in the form of violent criminals kidnapping women and brave heroes rescuing them) then might it be that these kinds of stories are what people are looking for…

"Female hero? How boring!" How can you consider your views as non-sexist? You're clearly defining roles based on gender. Edit: First story off my head is the first Resident Evil movie. She wakes up in chaos without memory. From what she can discern her would be lover and she are accosted by zombies. She fights her way through as the hero. Ultimately I think she remembers her lover betrayed her and started the outbrea…

> Female hero? How boring!

That's not what I said.

Your example is not of a female rescuing a weak helpless male and then "putting a ring on it". It's of a female hero who rescues herself after discovering her lover betrayed her. Still the bad guy role played by the male. Still the person worth caring about is the female.

> How can you consider your views as non-sexist?

I'm simply not concerned with whether you consider my views sexist or not. I just want to have a realistic understanding of human nature.

Now, if I said that women should have _less_ rights than men, then I would be sexist (in a bad way). But I never even implied anything close to that. So why should I worry about my views being sexist?

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#100

Post by appetizer » Fri, Apr 28, 2017, 3:30 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #87

appetizer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brave New World describes an inferior negroid class whose female zygotes furiously accept sperm zygotes with great vigor. Its not just about slavery, and I'm not sure how this analysis would even begin to comprehensively find these currently unfavorable descriptions of people.

Brave New World is meant to portray a distopia.

The alpha and beta classes were not living in a dystopia. Seemed quite nice. Freedom to pursue intellectual endeavors, freedom to have sex with whomever you wanted with no consequence, a life of privilege.