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Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

varianceexplained.org

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Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#51

Post by Red_Tarsius »

empath75 wrote: post #6

It's interesting how thoroughly ingrained sexist concepts are in the language. Even a verb that's fairly active like 'resist' assumes a power relation in which they are in a worse position. I'd like to see this done by country or year or language or genre.

Once again, US culture cherry-picks data and declares that any statistical discrepancy is caused by oppression or sexism. Other hypotheses are taboo and dismissed. You, as well as the author, jump to the morally accepted conclusion without looking at the real world.

I believe in gender equality. But it is worth thinking about other hypotheses even if you don't accept them, that is, the implications of biology in human behaviour.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#52

Post by ghaff »

OJFord wrote: post #21
stefanwlb wrote: post #2

The author failed to mention the context of the data chosen; specifically the dates. For example, rob vs. steal, would change depending on the century the work was created.

> For example, rob vs. steal, would change depending on the century the work was created. Eh? Both come so naturally to me that I honestly have no idea which centuries you're talking about, or which you think is obsolete.

Steal has become relatively more popular over time although the difference is probably not large enough to attach a lot of significance to it.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=rob%2C+steal&y...

If I had to guess why (other than reasons...) I'd probably speculate that steal tends to have a broader meaning while rob is more likely to be applied to physically robbing someone.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#53

Post by oblio »

intjk wrote: post #27
Traubenfuchs wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people identify as "attack helicopter".

...No they don't. If you manage to find two people who do, congratulations on being "technically" correct.

It's a meme, relax.

I think it's not as funny as the Navy Seal meme, though!

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/navy-seal-copypasta

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#54

Post by shakna »

belorn wrote: post #49
tomp wrote: post #39

> I think this paints a somewhat dark picture of gender roles within typical story plots. Women are more likely to be in the role of victims- “she screams”, “she cries”, or “she pleads.” Men tend to be the aggressor: “he kidnaps” or “he beats”. Not all male-oriented terms are negative- many, like “he saves”/”he rescues” are distinctly positive- but almost all are active rather than receptive. Got mathematical analysi…

The term aggressor is misplaced. The data shows how men as a general rule always play the antagonist and the disposable henchmen. The mustache-twirling, eye-rolling, leering, cackling, and hand-rubbing villain is by definition male, and in the rare occasion a plot is different and switches the gender of the antagonist it also adds additional changes like poison and stabbing instead of guns and punching.

> The data shows how men as a general rule always play the antagonist and the disposable henchmen

I think part of that sentence is amazingly perfect for the leanings exposed in this study.

Women aren't disposable henchmen, or are rather rarely.

Unless we stumble across female societies in the course of a story, the idea of a disposable female character strikes a chord against our idealogies.

It isn't really surprising, killing women and children is considered reprehensible, the thing only the villain would do.

But it does make them unsuitable for henchman material.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#55

Post by circlefavshape »

empath75 wrote: post #6

It's interesting how thoroughly ingrained sexist concepts are in the language. Even a verb that's fairly active like 'resist' assumes a power relation in which they are in a worse position. I'd like to see this done by country or year or language or genre.

People in literature don't have a biological sex, they only have a socially-constructed gender, and so naturally they will have the characteristics of that gender ... in fact, the sum of behaviour characteristics of the genders in our stories is the social construction of gender

(I started this post off as tongue-in-cheek, but now I realise it's probably true)

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#56

Post by dahart »

tomp wrote: post #40
zebrafish wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably still sexist. I think you would probably agree that literature spoke the same way about black people a couple hundred years ago. Cultures can be sexist or racist even if everyone subscribes to the same discriminatory standards. However, I think the interesting point is that this is the culmination of 100,000 plot descriptions. At that point, it's not a reflection of bias in an author, it's a culturally…

If you took 100,000 historical books describing the periods of US slavery, you'd have a strong correlation between "black" and "slave", but concluding that the books are therefore racist would be extremely illogical.

You have a valid point of logic. The only problem is that in reality, many many of those books actually were racist. Slavery and racism were in fact culturally acceptable in the United States for a period of time, it is not at all a stretch to hypothesize that the writing of the time reflected that fact. One might even argue that to assume otherwise would be extremely illogical.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#57

Post by viraptor »

artursapek wrote: post #18
empath75 wrote: post #6

It's interesting how thoroughly ingrained sexist concepts are in the language. Even a verb that's fairly active like 'resist' assumes a power relation in which they are in a worse position. I'd like to see this done by country or year or language or genre.

Is it sexist if it's reflective of reality? Men commit more aggressive crimes than women by far.

An interesting question is: does it just reflect reality, or does it shape reality? There are cultures with different ideas about genders - ideas taught to people. So a random book, movie, story, etc you discover in modern west has a higher chance of describing a man murdering a resisting woman. If you see that trope repeated enough times - are you affected in any way? Is there a statistically relevant impact on society as a whole?

I'd say that if there is, then yes, content which keeps the idea alive is sexist to an extent. (Unless you're writing non-fiction) And the existence of the adtech, and ideas like brand awareness, and catchy jingles, and recent fake news is a decent example that society is relatively easy to influence just by constant repeating and enforcing of information.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#58

Post by Red_Tarsius »

tomp wrote: post #39

> I think this paints a somewhat dark picture of gender roles within typical story plots. Women are more likely to be in the role of victims- “she screams”, “she cries”, or “she pleads.” Men tend to be the aggressor: “he kidnaps” or “he beats”. Not all male-oriented terms are negative- many, like “he saves”/”he rescues” are distinctly positive- but almost all are active rather than receptive. Got mathematical analysi…

That paragraph didn't match the rest of the article. I sense that he reached his own conclusions well before collecting the data. Confirmation bias is the cardinal sin of data mining.

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#59

Post by ebfd »

viraptor wrote: post #57
artursapek wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it sexist if it's reflective of reality? Men commit more aggressive crimes than women by far.

An interesting question is: does it just reflect reality, or does it shape reality? There are cultures with different ideas about genders - ideas taught to people. So a random book, movie, story, etc you discover in modern west has a higher chance of describing a man murdering a resisting woman. If you see that trope repeated enough times - are you affected in any way? Is there a statistically relevant impact on soci…

In what culture are women depicted as more likely to commit sexual crimes against men than vice-versa?

Re: Gender and verbs across 100K stories: a tidy analysis

#60

Post by Torwald »

artursapek wrote: post #18
empath75 wrote: post #6

It's interesting how thoroughly ingrained sexist concepts are in the language. Even a verb that's fairly active like 'resist' assumes a power relation in which they are in a worse position. I'd like to see this done by country or year or language or genre.

Is it sexist if it's reflective of reality? Men commit more aggressive crimes than women by far.

Let's say your second hypothesis is true.

What would that mean? That men commit more aggressive crimes or that the users of the language perceive it that way? Also, what would then be seen as a crime or as violence?

The point I am trying to make is that there is probably a cultural factor in this as well. (How the culture perceives things to be.)

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