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Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

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Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#181
post #154
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in this case the market is distorted by the fact that regulations allow the airline to not let people board for a much smaller cost. If the airline didn't have that legal out, they would be forced to negotiate terms with each passenger whose contract they wanted to break.

They didn't even hit that limit before they sent in the goons in this case, though.

The actual limit is 4x the price of the ticket, capped at $1350, so it could very well have been down in the $400 range.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canned friendliness is, IMO, worse than brusque professionalism.

Especially on Delta and American, I don't even get brusque professionalism, I get outright rudeness. The longer I've lived in the US, the more I've learned to minimize conversations to flight attendants to "I'll just have water", "thanks" and "have a nice day". AirTran (now part of Southwest) used to be really nice.

It's always interesting to me how much experiences vary, and how likely it is that our biases also color our perceptions. Almost always when I get on a Delta flight (admittedly I fly them the most), I'll get a friendly hello and what seems like a professional and genuine smile when I get my beverage. My last few experiences on Southwest have been a borderline sneer (if any acknowledgment at all) as I get on the plane, followed by bizarre jokes over the intercom or a round of applause for the plane landing (?).

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#183
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there is more fuel left in the tank, so there is less on the refill so yes it does save fuel, not much but it does save some. I prefer no refunds for no-show policy myself, that is how it works when I buy a ticket to see a play. Now refundable upto 48 hours before the flight might be even fairer.

The fuel increase is marginal. You still have to burn fuel to carry that fuel to the next airport. And you have to carry the airframe with capacity for that empty seat. The 100 kg for a passenger+luggage is much less than the fractional weight of the plane required to carry them! For some numbers, a 777-200 carries 313 passengers, weighs 135k kg, carries up to 100k kg of fuel, and has a max takeoff weight of about 25…

> (PS: apologies for the 'thousands of kg' units. I thought it was more readable than Mg or fully written out numbers.)

Just write tonnes (= metric tons)?

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, boarding speed is not my major complaint - failing to secure an aisle seat, however, is.

Fast boarding speeds lowers their cost. That's one of the reasons Southwest can often be much cheaper than other airlines.

Is Southwest often that much cheaper? I usually only fly them because they're direct where others are not, but it usually doesn't save me money.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#185

Southwest Airlines has the best website, best checked luggage policy, best change policy, and now no overbooking. The big four domestic airlines all treat coach passengers like cattle, but Southwest is the least predatory. Edit: Also, consider that Southwest is very profitable despite the fact that they don't have first class or business class sections on their aircraft. Yes, passengers pay different fares. But as fa…

Southwest has never had a fatal accident (as a passenger). That is damn good. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1248

I'm curious, are there stats for this that are adjusted for the number of flights/total time of flights/total number of passenger-hours flown? I found one list[0] but it didn't quite give that:

[0]: http://airsafe.com/airline.htm

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#186

Southwest Airlines has the best website, best checked luggage policy, best change policy, and now no overbooking. The big four domestic airlines all treat coach passengers like cattle, but Southwest is the least predatory. Edit: Also, consider that Southwest is very profitable despite the fact that they don't have first class or business class sections on their aircraft. Yes, passengers pay different fares. But as fa…

Virgin America[0] has a better website, in my opinion. Southwest has always been nice to me, but when they had their big outage in May 2016 they were quite rude to everyone. https://www.virginamerica.com/

It's a shame they're being folded into Alaska in the coming years.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#187
post #81
post #12

This response feels knee jerk. It's been demonstrated in countless other threads (1) and articles (2) how economically important it is to overbook. Overbooking is central to airline profitability and their ability to provide flexibility - like partial refunds, or SW's "open tickets" policy on business select. As a consumer I appreciate these things and find them incredibly useful. United's response of "We'll push the…

Overbooking is a technique used by legacy airlines. Pure LCCs don't use it (certainly in Europe) because their tickets are non-refundable other than from EC261 claims and they don't have inter-lining or partnerships with other carriers. I'm surprised Southwest were overbooking in the first place given they're a budget airline... Edit: An exception may be Easyjet (though I've never seen it happen and I fly them a lot)…

Economically speaking, non-refundability doesn't necessarily make overbooking unnecessary.

Let's take two airlines, A and B. Both only sell non-refundable tickes. A never overbooks. B always overbooks. What happens?

A will fly with some number of empty seats on average, because they still get the occasional no-show. B flies with fewer empty seats on average because they overbook.

Which airline can offer more competitive prices? It's B. Because by overbooking B's revenue per plane leg is higher.

If that isn't clear, here's an example. Say the planes have a capacity of 100, and on average 2 people fail to show. A sells 100 tickets for $100.00 each. B sells 101 tickets for $99.02 each. On average, B makes more money on every flight, _and_ is more competitive on price.

Of course with the numbers in my example the compensation paid by B on the odd occasion that everyone shows up probably kills any additional profit. The real numbers matter in order to determine to what extent this really happens in practice. But I hope I've demonstrated that non-refundability of tickets doesn't necessarily or automatically mean that overbooking is not profitable.

So there is some potential level of competitive benefit to overbooking even on non-refundable tickets, assuming that some people still occasionally fail to show (because they miss a connection, become ill, or whatever).

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fast boarding speeds lowers their cost. That's one of the reasons Southwest can often be much cheaper than other airlines.

Any time I fly I try to get the lowest possible fare by using priceline/kayak/whatever. Southwest never comes up among the lowest prices.

Southwest only sells tickets directly (another way they keep fares low) and they don't share flight data with Kayak/Priceline/etc..

If Southwest covers your route, their fares are almost always going to be competitive with the lowest price. Where Southwest is not good is when you have longer flights (cross country) which will almost always entail stops and or changing planes. But it is great for short stuff like flying between OAK/LAX/SFO/PHX/LAS.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#189
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, I agree the problem is not auctioning seats high enough. But the proximate issue is that United didn't offer cash, but $800 in United Fun Bux that are worthless for most people. The vouchers they were offering were only valid at dates United decided. The vouchers expired after a year. And they are offered in coupons for which you can only use one coupon per flight, and the excess value is lost. Practically all n…

Vouchers like that are egregious. Now that it's too late, United is now offering up to $10k if they can't get someone to volunteer for less.

Up to 10k in vouchers. I don't even know how someone with a non-travel job would use that many coupons in a year.

Re: Southwest to Stop Overbooking as United Uproar Echoes

#190

The problem isn't overbooking. The problem is not auctioning the seats higher when overbooked. I've seen a number of overbooked southwest flights and people can't line up fast enough for a $300 flight credit + next available flight. I can't imagine it ever going over $1k. IMHO if any airline should continue overbooking it's SWA. No first class, no assigned seats. Most of the flights are short range with multiple flig…

It isn't a simple auction. Not all passengers are equal. There are issues that make an airline not want to bump some passengers. For instance, on some international flights there are rules against unaccompanied baggage. So the passenger without checked luggage will be bumped in order to save time. Passengers travelling in groups are also preferable as they will more likely share a hotel room. That's why families get bumped so easily. And then there are connections. The passenger who will miss subsequent connections is an expensive person to bump. This seems to have been the case in the United fiasco. The man was travelling in a group (his wife was with him) and didn't have any checked luggage, else we would have heard about it being offloaded or returned to him in hospital, and had no connections to make. Such complications go beyond the simple cash payout, making a strait auction difficult.

Want never to be bumped? Travel alone but with a pet in the hold. They won't touch you. Or travel with someone in a wheelchair. They are also an expensive awkward person to bump. As I said to one gate person: "We cannot be bumped. My grandmother only has pills for the next 12 hours." That lit a fire under them. Grandma knew to play ball and suddenly looked very much older than she was.

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