Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, works for me.
Count me in too.
We could meet on IRC and exchange numbers, then migrate to Signal... I've taken the liberty of setting up ##hackerblues on Freenode.
Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
261–270 of 317 posts
Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not that you're necessarily wrong, but you're not necessarily right, either. I've been in not too different a place, and I can say with some confidence that all the psychiatrists in the world don't add up to one good friend who cares. Look after those relationships, folks. Lose them and they're gone forever.
The parent comment noted they fell out of touch with their friend. As for your confident advice, that's only true for you. The Uber engineer who took his life had a loving family. Everyone having suicidal thoughts should be screened by a psychiatrist. Sometimes it takes medication and medication saves lives.
Medication is a problem unless you are sick.
We all need confirmation and less pressure...are we sick because of that?
Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder if accepting such a claim also meant accepting that Thomas had faced an "extraordinary employment condition". That is, did the benefits claim come with an accusation that Uber was at fault? If so, then it's not just a consideration of "common decency", but legal liability. Note: IANAL and didn't even know what California law was in regards to insurance claims and suicide. Genuinely curious as to the technica…
Good point! IANAL also, but I read a bit about this and got the following[1]: > Ultimately, the WCAB emphasized that it was the “work condition that must be uncommon, unusual, or totally unexpected” in order to qualify as an extraordinary employment condition So, I wonder if by rejecting the claim, Uber is claiming that whatever work conditions Thomas was facing is normal. I wonder if the converse is also true, that…
I imagine this would. E evaluated by a judge and or a reasonable standard clause. We don't tolerate domestic abuse in the home so maybe those concepts extend to the workplace.
Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm no fan of Uber but I think this is putting too much blame on them. If you see a toxic culture, leave. I know there are other factors, psychological things that keep you from making rational decisions etc. But lets please be clear: the world is actually a pretty brutal place for most of humanity. Most humans are stuck in a poverty loop they can't ever hope to escape. And we have a story of people who can't just sa…
> If you see a toxic culture, leave. This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become "toxic".
> This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become "toxic".
Well, I never said it was easy.
To elaborate more, it is incredibly important to have contingency plans in place, to prevent exactly this sort of situation from happening. One of the first things I did when I started working professionally was to have enough liquidity to last at least a year, which I was able to do only after 3 years of saving aggressively. Which really came in handy after I was laid off a job and had to spend 3 months looking for another one.
I really don't understand how one can get married, have kids and not have such plans in place? IMO it seems kinda irresponsible, especially if one is working in tech, where saving money is much easier than in other professions.
Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
The real cost of doing something because something must be done is the false sense of satisfaction. That cost is potentially very high in this case.
And so is the potential cost of not doing anything, so what's your point? You seem to conjecture that refering someone to a hotline raises the chance of that person commiting suicide, while AFAIK all the evidence points towards suicide hotlines being effective at reducing stress and suicidality.
Sorry, what? Not doing anything may result in a false sense of satisfaction?
> seem to conjecture that refering someone to a hotline raises the chance of that person commiting suicide
I don't conjecture this at all.
> all the evidence points towards suicide hotlines being effective at reducing stress and suicidality.
What evidence? The entire point of this subthread is that we don't have any evidence that this is true. Or do you have some evidence we don't know about?
Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the case of one friend, yes she made a deal. She didn't think the deal included constant harassment by colleagues. Life isn't black and white.
Your OP was specifically about being handcuffed to a job because of equity considerations. How it isn't so easy to quit, you see, because equity. In the case of this 'one friend', she was not handcuffed to a job because of equity considerations. Therefore, no problem for her to quit. Kind of works against your original point, not for it.
I'm not really sure how you know my friend, or even which friend I'm speaking about, so I don't know how you'd know her situation. She's handcuffed because she's put in years of effort and hoping for a liquidity event before she leaves, lest she leave with little or nothing. She's miserable for entirely different reasons -- due to treatment she receives at work from what she tells me.
Not sure why this would be surprising -- this situation is very common across startups. I am a co-founder also, and I have equity vesting agreements, understandably, as I want retention; I don't want employees constantly leaving with the next wind that blows. At the same time, I'd hate to keep a miserable employee who isn't fully productive. I'd like to think I set a good enough workplace culture that there wouldn't be harassment/bullying, but who knows...
What is more wicked, and beyond me as a business owner, is US tax treatment on illiquid equity. That really needs to change.
Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
For the most part, in the United States, this kind of notice is a courtesy not 100% required.
Are there any states where it's illegal to just walk out? I know you can in New York and all of the Midwest.
I have no legal knowledge, but since that has never stopped anyone on the internet from speculating in the past:
1. Seems like it might be criminal to walk off the job if you're a surgeon in the middle of a operation, firefighter at a fire, etc.
2. Otherwise, it seems possible that you could be sued by your employer for walking off the job but criminal, probably not.
3. If my employer tried to physically prevent me from leaving work, I'd call the police immediately.
Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure what you're getting at there.
That people can abandon their life instead of committing suicide. But it does not matter, the message was downvoted for lack of clarity, and is too general to be useful.
I think it was probably the choice of words in the last sentence (before edit) in particular that bothered people.
Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. Far worse. I've worked at startups where we had to bust ass to get things done... mid-90s... sleeping at the office, going weeks without a paycheck to get the product to launch, living off Jolt and pizza -- and trying to build something that we honestly weren't sure could be built. And even if the work wasn't always done…
While I can't possibly say that I know everything about your situations, one of the things that has worked very well when working with bosses I don't like is being 100% honest and trying to get to their concerns and trying to reach a reasonable agreement on management style. I get it that most of us programmers aren't inherently good at social skills, but its a skill that can be learned and has been incredibly useful…
I feel like a lot of times they're out to game the situation.
And I feel disrespected that they aren't being honest with me about what they want. Someone comes up and says, "Oh we have to do X before Y... because it's the right thing to do!" And I just feel like they're trying to play me. I have no confidence that they won't come back tomorrow with, "Y is better than X!"
Someone comes and says, "My bonus depends on X, and not Y..." and even though I'm doing the same work, it's not stressful because I know why I'm doing it and I'm not worried the ground is going to come out from under me while I'm doing it -- if that makes sense. Having people change direction once they give me a goal is something that always causes me stress.
Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress
#270This widow seems to be the same woman who was charged with leaving her kids in a hot car. The children were later released to the father. http://www.cbs46.com/story/19109920/police-mother-arrested-f... Makes one wonder if Joseph's family life wasn't exactly conducive to stability.
No it doesn't make one wonder that.