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Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

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Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#241

Post by pm90 »

neilk wrote: post #220
TheCondor wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a psychologist but I have observed this kind of syndrome a couple times and I think it's usually more like a performance anxiety. You take the big fish out of the little pond and all the sudden he's a small fish in a big pond and it's a culture shock. The time lines, the compromises and the urgency are all different at a startup. You are used to being the smartest guy in the room at a mid sized or big place,…

I know exactly what you're talking about. I've seen it and even been that guy. We should be clear, though, that the "small fish in a big pond" scenario isn't exactly what happened to Joseph Thomas. According to the article he had already had a successful run at LinkedIn and had an offer on the table from Apple. Sometimes even brilliant people just aren't a match, no matter what. But a mismatch is a mutual responsibil…

I'm no fan of Uber but I think this is putting too much blame on them. If you see a toxic culture, leave. I know there are other factors, psychological things that keep you from making rational decisions etc. But lets please be clear: the world is actually a pretty brutal place for most of humanity. Most humans are stuck in a poverty loop they can't ever hope to escape. And we have a story of people who can't just say: "enough! I'm outta here?".

I'm certainly not putting the blame on Joseph, he seems to have suffered a lot despite having objectively been a good engineer. But lets not forget that we're all (mostly) at-will employees, there is nothing stopping us from getting up and leaving just right now. Personal responsibility is really important. Perhaps we should be teaching some of this stuff in high school? I don't know what the solution is IMO.

I've personally been in toxic situations as well. As soon as I realized my happiness delta was negative, I immediately started looking at other positions and switched.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#242

Post by pm90 »

pdimitar wrote: post #212
k-mcgrady wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise. I've worked at startups at it was a rare occasion my boss could convince me to stay past 6pm. When we were working on a big release and the work wasn't getting done fast enough or his liking the solution wasn't for me to work extra hours - it was to tell him, "you need to hire another developer to work with me". There are laws to protect you from being worked into the ground and at the end of the day, if yo…

I don't disagree with you, but you're overestimating the desire of most devs (at least most I ever knew) to hop between jobs. Yes we're sought after but that doesn't mean we want to re-adjust 4 times a year.

> 4 times a year.

I think if you have to switch 4 times a year, either you're exceptionally unlucky or exceptionally bad at evaluating jobs for their effect on your personal fulfillment/happiness.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#243

Post by doubleplusgood »

cryptarch wrote: post #201
doubleplusgood wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going through something similar right now. We could open a Telegram support group :)

A Signal group perhaps? Think of the children! (Telegram isn't secure and choosing stickers over security will yield more stickers and less security.)

Sure, works for me.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#244

Post by pm90 »

dbg31415 wrote: post #217
defined wrote: post #25

This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other. It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. It simply takes being treated like a robotic…

> It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. Far worse. I've worked at startups where we had to bust ass to get things done... mid-90s... sleeping at the office, going weeks without a paycheck to get the product to launch, living off Jolt and pizza -- and trying to build something that we honestly weren't sure could be built. And even if the work wasn't always done…

While I can't possibly say that I know everything about your situations, one of the things that has worked very well when working with bosses I don't like is being 100% honest and trying to get to their concerns and trying to reach a reasonable agreement on management style. I get it that most of us programmers aren't inherently good at social skills, but its a skill that can be learned and has been incredibly useful for me.

Of course if the boss is just a dickwad, that is a pretty clear indication for you to leave. But more often they are just clueless about good management practices and/or have no idea that they're alienating the team.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#245

Post by pm90 »

coldpie wrote: post #190
throwaway8800 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had a Pavlovian response to the sound of email arriving on my phone, to the point where it would be in my nightmares. I went through a rough period last summer where a project I was involved in was a complete disaster. I basically spent 24x7 terrified that a new "emergency" was going to roll in on my phone via email with a stakeholder telling me how this new issue was ruining their life and how disappointed they…

I just don't put work email on my personal devices. If I'm not at the office, I'm not working. Done. Otherwise you can pay me to be on-call, and that's a whole other discussion.

100% this. Last time I had work ask me to install slack or email on my personal device, I politely declined, but suggested they provide me with another mobile device specifically for that purpose. They didn't do that; but if they had done, I would have most likely kept it off of me after work hours.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#246

Post by ryandrake »

thesmallestcat wrote: post #233
jjm wrote: post #221

All, Hear me out. The first thing you need to overcome is not your wallet, or your options, timing or any other thing. It is -- your mind. If you experience this level of pressure, quit. And then start looking. Do not be influenced that your boss is the boss of your life or your career for that matter. If you've got a family to take care of, quickly join a consulting firm. Worst case you'll have to travel some, but i…

Tell that to somebody who has a family, or is paying child support/alimony. I'm sure their ex will sympathize that it's not about your wallet, but your mind.

Thank you, just quitting and crossing your fingers hoping you'll maybe get a new job at some point in the next 1-100 months is not an option for anyone with actual responsibilities.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#247

Post by throwaway8800 »

pm90 wrote: post #241
neilk wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I've seen it and even been that guy. We should be clear, though, that the "small fish in a big pond" scenario isn't exactly what happened to Joseph Thomas. According to the article he had already had a successful run at LinkedIn and had an offer on the table from Apple. Sometimes even brilliant people just aren't a match, no matter what. But a mismatch is a mutual responsibil…

I'm no fan of Uber but I think this is putting too much blame on them. If you see a toxic culture, leave. I know there are other factors, psychological things that keep you from making rational decisions etc. But lets please be clear: the world is actually a pretty brutal place for most of humanity. Most humans are stuck in a poverty loop they can't ever hope to escape. And we have a story of people who can't just sa…

> If you see a toxic culture, leave.

This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become "toxic".

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#248

Post by cowpewter »

code_duck wrote: post #67
stephengillie wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to end things, walk away from your life and career. Stand up from your desk, put one foot in front of the other, and proceed in this way until you tire.

It seems people are confused by this comment. My interpretation is that you mean what I've heard phrased as 'kill the person you are'. Meaning, if it's your life situations and identity that are causing you such distress, why not just walk away? This could mean switching careers, getting divorced, cutting ties with friends, moving far away, or a combination thereof. After all, suicide would end all of those things to…

Suicide means an end to all pain and consequences for your actions though (or at least consequences you will have to deal with yourself, as you will no longer exist), and dropping everything and just walking away means you will still have to deal with the consequences of walking away, and the pain of picking up the pieces afterward.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#249

Post by [deleted] »

skrebbel wrote: post #87
defined wrote: post #25

This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other. It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. It simply takes being treated like a robotic…

I keep reading stories like these on HN, yet I don't know a single person who has experienced anything even remotely close to this. I don't live in the Bay Area. Are SV startups, in general, really this badly managed? If I add up all anecdata from reading HN comments about toxic work environments, I get the impression that 50% of the Valley is run like this. I have a hard time comprehending how this can happen.

[deleted]

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#250

Post by BinaryIdiot »

smoe wrote: post #235
BinaryIdiot wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. I've worked at 3 start-ups and at all of them I've worked long, grueling hours with the most recent one I was doing at least 65 hours a week (typically longer especially with a 3+ hour commute). I became severely burned out to the point where I didn't want to look for work or do much of anything. I was depressed and had severe anxiety. I went to the hospital with an anxiety attack so strong that I literall…

Hope you don't mind me asking, but why would you work 65 hours in the first place? Or what do people expect to truly gain for "giving up" almost all of their waking hours for a company? High salary, equity, respect of peers, personal growth?

Sure. So we had all worked together before and we all just "got shit done" no matter what. At a previous job sometimes this meant working extra a few weeks but it wasn't every week.

The management at companies like this take it to mean you can do this every week and every week it has to get done in order to get a customer, etc. So you don't want to let anyone down and possibly lose business. So you bust your ass, week after week, putting out fire after fire, until you burn out.

I'm all for people working extra during certain crunch times. That's unavoidable a lot of the time. But doing it, week after week, for years? No good. I don't care how great the company is it simply isn't sustainable without significantly harming employees.

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