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Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

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Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#191
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offtopic, but I just wanted to point out that your comment looks like this: http://imgur.com/FGi9jsv It's quite difficult to read, and even harder for mobile users. It might be better to use > or asterisks for quoting. For anyone else who was trying to read the quoted parts, here they are: He's perfectly at liberty to [share the information] No, he's not according to the violations cited in Final Order, page 6, secti…

Thanks -- I did use '>' but didn't wrap the lines myself, assuming the single '> lots of text here' was enough.

[deleted]

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#192
post #89

The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. The Boards interpretation of "engineer" in this context was to mean Traffic Engineer. The Board warned Järlström that he was in violation of the Law and asked him to stop claiming to be an engineer, to which he agreed. It was later, when he continued to claim to be an engineer that legal action was taken. It is also of note, and stat…

During college in Indiana, a couple of us software engineers wanted to take the state's "Professional Engineer" certification exam. Just to see how we'd do. We were told plainly, "you cannot register for the PE exam because the state of Indiana does not recognize software engineers as 'real engineers'". However, if we were Electrical Engineers and wrote embedded software, that would make us a "real engineer". They explained that the certification was primarily designed for Civil and Mechanical engineers. One guy looked into changing his major temporarily just to take the test but assumed the college administration wouldn't be thrilled about that.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#193
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No he is not being punished for thinking and speech. You're treating the documents containing his proposal as a completely separate issue from his claim of professional status, but the documents are a doubling down upon his original and repeated false claim of being an engineer, which claim he was warned he should not be making. If I hold out a mystery pill and invite you to swallow it, how you react will differ cons…

The Board's Final Report said, in a separate paragraph (14), that because "thinking and speech" (speech about his thinking, not "I'm an engineer")[1] were a violation of the law. If you're arguing the board doesn't actually think that's a violation unless one also said one is an engineer, great, I've never disagreed with that; but they explicitly said "because [action definition X] you are in violation" and [definiti…

Stop ignoring the context in which the violation occurred. You are treating them as two separate behaviors when one is in fact pendant on the other.

I've seen this in so many legal cases - people file appeals arguing that the law is terribly wrong and their arguments are beautifully logical but for the fact that they are asking the appeal court to forget some very salient fact.

Imagine you go to a party and pee in the punch bowl. It doesn't matter how many times you subsequently offer a great recipe for punch in a demonstrably clean bowl, nobody is going to forget about the fact that you pissed in it the first time. I apologize for employing such a crude metaphor but I am baffled by your refusal to acknowledge the context in which the investigation occurred, so I'm resorting to shocking imagery in the hope of opening your eyes to this.

The court (or similar administrative body) should not have to spell the context out over and over and over again for every bit of the case under discussion. When you read the judgement in a legal case you are expected to hold that idea in your head unless you're explicitly told that X and Y are entirely separate issues. Parsing bits of the decision out of context will lead to errors of interpretation. I don't know how to explain this any more clearly to you.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#194
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how. I'm not falsely claiming that I'm a lawyer. I'm falsely claiming that someone else is a lawyer—a fictional person. (I write claims in the voices of fictional people all the time; I'm a novelist.) Is it because I would presumably be writing the letter with a first-person-viewpoint prose style? If so, then would it change anything if I just wrote a letter as myself , saying that I would contact my name…

You are writing a letter that purports to be written by a lawyer; you are pretending to be a lawyer that happens to have a different name than your actual name. That is both pretending to be a lawyer, and pretending other false things. Consider if you change the communication medium from written to oral: if walk up to someone and claim a different name than is actually yours, claim to be a lawyer representing someone…

I still don't see the argument, because I don't see where writing the letter translates to me claiming anything. Like, imagine that I wrote the letter as a text that would appear in a novel. And then someone else, reading my book, copy-and-pasted that text into an email and sent it to someone. I'm quite certain I'm not claiming to be a lawyer at that point (although the person who copied the text might now be, I guess.) What is the smallest change you can make to what I did by writing the novel, that would push it over the line into being a criminal act? When does a text change from fiction into a claim about reality?

I don't think the "walking up to someone" analogy applies, because there's a "me" doing that walking that the person can see, and so by asserting any claim through speech, I'd be attaching the subject of that claim to the person they're seeing—i.e. to myself. But in sending a letter written "as" someone else, there is no "me" from their perspective to attach the claim to. There's only "whoever is named [fake lawyer name]" (nobody) and "whoever sent this letter" (someone else, although I paid them to do it. Coincidentally, if I did have a lawyer, I'd be paying them to do it.)

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#195
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agreed. He pretty much barked up the one tree that actively cares about use of the title "engineer", and used it in violation of the law (as it is now). Had he sent the letter/formula/math/suggestions to the local state university civil engineering department, the local/state Dept. of Transportation, or the local/state representative, the response would have fallen on less deaf ears, and his use of the tit…

Fining the man was probably what the law dictates. Yet, it feels so wrong in this case. Reminds me of this talk by Barry Schwartz: https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_our_loss_of_wisd...

They didn't fine him at first. They warned him not to do it, and explained why. He acknowledged this and agreed in September 2015 not to present himself as an engineer again. Then he changed his mind and resumed doing so.

Barry Schwartz specializes in telling only half the case to people who know nothing about law, while leaving out any facts that would show his clients in a bad light. Like he'll tell you about the plight of an oyster farmer whose business was shut down by the evil federal government, without mentioning that the farmer in question signed a contract for a fixed-term lease and the government extended the deadline several times before finally enforcing the terms of the lease.

Pick one or more of his cases then go look up the actual court opinions. The facts always seem to be very different from the version he presents to his audiences. He relies on people taking his claims at face value and not doing any fact-checking of their own.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#196
post #128

So now we have a place where you can self-identify as an opposing gender but not as a profession you practice. I'd duplicate his letters to the same recipients, if I could.

Please don't leap to start flamewars like this, the guidelines ask us not to.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#197
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law is not without context, nor is the law not without exceptions. Indeed there is a whole set of exceptions related to "Exception to application of ORS 672.002 to 672.325"[0]. You may be interested in ORS 672.060(6)(a and b): (6) The performance of engineering work by a person, or by full-time employees of the person, provided: (a) The work is in connection with or incidental to the operations of the person; and…

Understood - I read those exceptions and his attempt to use them. Obviously neither exception applies; but it's the fact that the definition of engineering in ORS 672.005(b)[0] is so broad is worrying. Saying that I can do some math and create a nice graph for my neighbor, but not post it on imgur without a fine, is a step too far for my taste. [0] - https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.005

Please do yourself a favor and read this for a while instead. Taking bits of statute in isolation and extrapolating from them is a Bad Idea, and if ou ever get sued it will impair your ability to understand your own case. I've seen what that looks like close-up and it's not pretty.

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/academics/academic-programs/l...

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#198
post #131
post #35

Everyone's talking about the title issue, but it's amazing that the Oregon board doesn't believe he should be able to publish or present his ideas. You can go on and on about what it means to be a certain title, but the man should be able to put forth his work and ideas.

True. Just because Oregon board has a narrow view of what the word 'engineer' means I do not think this gentleman should be harassed this way. I find this immoral. Another instance I can recount is here where a woman was banned from touching horses. http://reason.com/blog/2017/02/17/woman-could-go-to-jail-for...

He was previously warned, he accepted the warning and promised not to do it again... and then he of course did it again. What's your moral concern exactly?

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#199
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are writing a letter that purports to be written by a lawyer; you are pretending to be a lawyer that happens to have a different name than your actual name. That is both pretending to be a lawyer, and pretending other false things. Consider if you change the communication medium from written to oral: if walk up to someone and claim a different name than is actually yours, claim to be a lawyer representing someone…

I still don't see the argument, because I don't see where writing the letter translates to me claiming anything. Like, imagine that I wrote the letter as a text that would appear in a novel. And then someone else, reading my book, copy-and-pasted that text into an email and sent it to someone. I'm quite certain I'm not claiming to be a lawyer at that point (although the person who copied the text might now be, I gues…

The key concepts that generally turn actions from innocuous to culpable here are: intention, and benefit. In particular - malicious intention or ill gotten benefit turn acts into the sort we as a society frown upon and hence attempt to deter with regulatory or criminal sanction.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#200
post #131
post #35

Everyone's talking about the title issue, but it's amazing that the Oregon board doesn't believe he should be able to publish or present his ideas. You can go on and on about what it means to be a certain title, but the man should be able to put forth his work and ideas.

True. Just because Oregon board has a narrow view of what the word 'engineer' means I do not think this gentleman should be harassed this way. I find this immoral. Another instance I can recount is here where a woman was banned from touching horses. http://reason.com/blog/2017/02/17/woman-could-go-to-jail-for...

Jarlstrom isn't being harassed and the woman in Tennessee has not been banned from touching horses.

Exaggeration never, ever makes a legal argument more convincing.

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