Live data from Hacker News

Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

motherboard.vice.com

171–180 of 258 posts

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ORS 672.005(1)(b) simply describes 'stuff an engineer does', in terrifyingly broad strokes. If "professional services or creative work" could be read as "services or creative work, either of which are done for money," perhaps it would be okay?

It's a mistake to pick out individual phrases and treat them as if they were mathematical equalities. Look at the preamble to that section: 'As used in ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties), unless the context requires otherwise: ' It's terrifying because you are reading bits of it out of context and extrapolating incorrectly to the broadest scope imaginable. I perform some…

[deleted]

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#172
post #10

I run up against this sometimes in Canada. I studied "Software Engineering" and have a bachelors degree from Australia. I am a member of the Australian Institute of Engineers (accredited degree). If I say something like "I am a Software Engineer" when I work in Canada, any other Engineers will get all prickly and go on about how that's not a recognized kind of Engineer, and it's illegal to say-so, blah blah. Even if…

For you, what's the distinction between being a software engineer, and being a software developer? The line seems blurry to me.

Depends on where you are. At least colloquially in many places, they're the same thing. In places that have engineering certification boards and enforce the use of the word "engineer", an "engineer" would usually be able to analyze the correctness of, and sign off on something safety-critical, taking on some level of legal liability for doing that. Kind of like the civil engineer signing off on a bridge, or an architect signing off on a building design.

The line's blurry, except for places where the law gives a sharper distinction.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#173
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they don't. He's perfectly at liberty to do so, but not to assert professional standing which he lacks in order to make it seem more convincing. Did you read the Board's complaint? At first the asked the Board to investigate the city even though the Board had no jurisdiction to do so. they advised him of this and also cautioned him not to advertise himself as an engineer, in accordance with Oregon's code. He agre…

> He's perfectly at liberty to [share the information] No, he's not according to the violations cited in Final Order, page 6, section heading #14; in particular: By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and worldwide traffic signals, which signals are public eq…

Offtopic, but I just wanted to point out that your comment looks like this: http://imgur.com/FGi9jsv

It's quite difficult to read, and even harder for mobile users. It might be better to use > or asterisks for quoting.

For anyone else who was trying to read the quoted parts, here they are:

He's perfectly at liberty to [share the information]

No, he's not according to the violations cited in Final Order, page 6, section heading #14; in particular:

> By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and worldwide traffic signals, which signals are public equipment, processes and works, Jarlstrom applied special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such creative work as investigation, evaluation, and design in connection with public equipment, processes, and works. Jarlstrom thereby engaged in the practice of engineering under ORS 672.005(1)(b).

...and summarizing:

> By engaging the practice of engineering [...] without registration, Jarlstrom violated [laws]. [...] By again providing the public with his traffic engineering calculations for the modification of Beaverton's traffic signal timing, Jarlstrom again engaged in the practice of engineering and, specifically, the practice of traffic engineering. He thereby violated [laws] on a third occasion. By providing his publicly released traffic engineering calculations to the sheriff of the 20 county where he advised changes in traffic signals, Jarlstrom again purported to be authorized to engage in, and did engage in, the practice of engineering. He, therefore, violated [laws] on third and fourth occasions.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#174
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. That's not the only issue the Board said it had, and not the most important one at that: > [...] you continued to use the title "engineer" in your communication with Board staff and, of more concern , are the documents you provided that indicate you may have engaged in unlicensed engineering work in Oregon. (emphasis mine). It's th…

No he is not being punished for thinking and speech. You're treating the documents containing his proposal as a completely separate issue from his claim of professional status, but the documents are a doubling down upon his original and repeated false claim of being an engineer, which claim he was warned he should not be making. If I hold out a mystery pill and invite you to swallow it, how you react will differ cons…

The Board's Final Report said, in a separate paragraph (14), that because "thinking and speech" (speech about his thinking, not "I'm an engineer")[1] were a violation of the law.

If you're arguing the board doesn't actually think that's a violation unless one also said one is an engineer, great, I've never disagreed with that; but they explicitly said "because [action definition X] you are in violation" and [definition X] pointedly does not include saying anything but "here's a creative application of math and stuff".

1. not the part where he said "I'm an engineer" -- the other paragraphs deal with that

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#175
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's perfectly at liberty to [share the information] No, he's not according to the violations cited in Final Order, page 6, section heading #14; in particular: By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and worldwide traffic signals, which signals are public eq…

Offtopic, but I just wanted to point out that your comment looks like this: http://imgur.com/FGi9jsv It's quite difficult to read, and even harder for mobile users. It might be better to use > or asterisks for quoting. For anyone else who was trying to read the quoted parts, here they are: He's perfectly at liberty to [share the information] No, he's not according to the violations cited in Final Order, page 6, secti…

Thanks -- I did use '>' but didn't wrap the lines myself, assuming the single '> lots of text here' was enough.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#176
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mistake to pick out individual phrases and treat them as if they were mathematical equalities. Look at the preamble to that section: 'As used in ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties), unless the context requires otherwise: ' It's terrifying because you are reading bits of it out of context and extrapolating incorrectly to the broadest scope imaginable. I perform some…

> You are not going to get fined just for calculating the hypotenuse of a triangle in public If the argument is "he said he was an 'engineer' and he isn't licensed", that's fine. And the Board's Final Report contains a lot of language establishing that, and for that he can be fined. But the Board's Report goes out of its way to say that ORS 672.005(c) and ORS 672.002 define "practicing engineering" as quite close to…

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that he had already repeatedly and knowingly made false claims of being an engineer despite having agreed not to do so? Doing engineer-y things is not the problem, it's doing them in the context of falsely presenting oneself as an engineer that's the problem.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? That he claimed to be an engineer? The board shouldn't exist as part of our government.

You realize this all started when Jarlstrom contacted the board to request that they launch an investigation of the city where his wife had received a traffic ticket? 'The board shouldn't exist' is a novel proposition. I guess you can't understand what interest the state might have in the ability to commission accurate land surveys and reliable public works. Almost makes you wonder how these things come into being in…

You seem to be asserting the government is the only institution wholely capable of, is effective at, or even interested in verifying a person's credentials.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#178
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using the title "engineer" in conjunction with "submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification [...] of traffic signals", I believe, is the critical part here. I hear you, and agree that when he says "I'm an engineer", we have a certain set of laws that apply to that speech. I'm saying there is another aspect which is the the crux of the reply-to-top-level…

The law is not without context, nor is the law not without exceptions. Indeed there is a whole set of exceptions related to "Exception to application of ORS 672.002 to 672.325"[0]. You may be interested in ORS 672.060(6)(a and b): (6) The performance of engineering work by a person, or by full-time employees of the person, provided: (a) The work is in connection with or incidental to the operations of the person; and…

Understood - I read those exceptions and his attempt to use them. Obviously neither exception applies; but it's the fact that the definition of engineering in ORS 672.005(b)[0] is so broad is worrying. Saying that I can do some math and create a nice graph for my neighbor, but not post it on imgur without a fine, is a step too far for my taste.

[0] - https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.005

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mistake to pick out individual phrases and treat them as if they were mathematical equalities. Look at the preamble to that section: 'As used in ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties), unless the context requires otherwise: ' It's terrifying because you are reading bits of it out of context and extrapolating incorrectly to the broadest scope imaginable. I perform some…

Is is an intellectual mistake, but, as demonstrated by this case and others, it is a mistake which clearly happens in the real world, and one whose consequences are inflicted upon people who have little ability to defend themselves

But after he first contacted them, they gave him a warning not to do that, and an explanation of why, and he agreed to abide by this. There was no fine and no punishment was inflicted on anyone.

But instead of pitching his idea as a simple concerned resident he went back to claiming to be an engineer a couple of months later. That's not a mistake because the issue had already been clearly explained to him. He's not a victim.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#180
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying the Board's justification clearly says, irrespective of whether he said he was an engineer, just engaging in the practice of [creative work using mathematics and engineering knowledge] is subject to registration. I mean, if he hadn't said he was an engineer to Licensed Engineers many times, I agree nobody would have bothered. But now that they've bothered, their justifications matter.

is subject to registration. You are incorrect. See my other post with a link to the clear exceptions baked directly into the law. If what you said were true, then he literally would not have had an affirmative defense to plead at all, which is plainly wrong as the final order specifically notes his pleading of 2 affirmative defenses. You can find these analysis of those affirmative defenses by reviewing the sections…

Paragraph 14[0] clearly states violations as a consequence of ORS 672.007(1)(c)[1] using the definition in ORS 672.005(1)(b)[2]:

"by [critiquing an engineering formula] and submitting the critique [...] to members of the public" [...he...] thereby engaged in the practice of engineering [...] specifically, traffic engineering [...and thus] violated ORS 672.020(1), 672.045(1) and OAR 820-010-0730(3)(c)".

I agree his affirmative defenses are inadequate, but I'm not taking issue with the analysis of his defense. I simply am pointing out the justification used in Paragraph 14 is concerning. ORS672.005(1)(b) is way too broad.

[0] - https://www.scribd.com/document/346354146/mats4#from_embed [1] - https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.007 [2] - https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.005

Post reply on HN