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Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

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Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#21

Post by Jtsummers »

phkahler wrote: post #18

I'm still not sure these Asian students make "better" engineers and such. They end up in more prestigious positions due to hiring practices that make it so. But then we see things like the critique of the Toyota software in the sudden acceleration investigation... While over in America with it's "inferior" education system we dominate tech. We want to be more like them, while they want to be more like us.

I wouldn't look at quality of tech from one (hardware) company and use that as a judgement on an entire continent.

My personal view on the Toyota software problem is that Toyota has the same problem as every American hardware company I've interacted with that went into software. Software was a necessary evil and outside their wheelhouse. Many of them succeed at software despite themselves until something comes up that forces them to reexamine what they're doing.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#22

Post by jansho »

panglott wrote: post #16

'The word amae comes from the word amaeru, which, according to Japanese psychoanalyst Takeo Doi (he's the guy who basically made this term a thing), can be defined as "to wish to be loved." On top of this, it has connotations of a need for dependency and a request for indulgence of one's perceived needs. This amae type of relationship is the ideal for all close relationships in Japan. It starts with child and mother,…

It might not be just psychobabble though. Amae may seem loosely connected to those non-cognitive skills, but if the author's right about it being widespread and so deeply embedded in society that it's applied everywhere, then I think it's a reasonable assumption that it does contribute to certain cultural traits, like grit. The author does need to cite studies showing the relationship between empathy/happy childhood and IQ/EQ though. Still, I thought that his opinion and what-ifs interesting.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#24

Post by unabst »

jasode wrote: post #12
Spooky23 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. There have been twin studies where reading skills, including early childhood reading skills accounted for a lot of perceived IQ differences. Early childhood engagement is incredibly important. We attribute many things to genetics that are outgrowths of a child's home environment. Parents stuck in cycles of inattentive or abusive family situations, over-reliance on shitty daycar…

>IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. [...] Early childhood engagement is incredibly important. Yes I agree that's very true but it's not relevant to the author's specific paragraph I was highlighting. Your particular statement can be true while simultaneously , Koichi's paragraph is false. This doesn't have to be some larger debate about nature-vs-nurture. Instead, I'm pointing out an example of reading a paragra…

It's not that simple.

> Most people think that IQ, the ability to memorize, etc., are the key metrics for determining the future of a child.

In Japan this is definitely true. It's what most people think, as dictated by what is common sense.

All the while, the mother with the tensai (genius) child will have instilled good studying habits, focus, prep, etc, and still believe her child is just smart for having good grades.

So Koichi's paragraph is not false. Or rather, there is truth there. If you wish to highlight the falseness then that is possible too, but taking an entire paragraph and trying to equate it as true or false is not that simple.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#25

Post by dkarl »

jansho wrote: post #20
dkarl wrote: post #11

Compare that to boys who are supposed to be raised as more independent and tough. Is it possible that the way we raise boys versus girls is what's causing more boys to have trouble paying attention? I don't know if "independence" and "toughness" capture what the author wants to talk about. There are cultures built around machismo in which male children are coddled and doted on by their mothers, where it is normal to…

> It's also possible to believe in the ideals of equality and interdependence in society at large while having zero emotional intimacy in the home. It's possible but may be harder. Home is like your base camp; you can have a crappy time in the outside world but home is the ultimate fallback and sanctuary. At least that's the ideal scenario. There's no doubt that growing up in a home that is broken or lacking warmth w…

Sorry, my original statement wasn't clear. What I meant to say is that it's possible to grow up in a household where equality and interdependence are embraced as social ideals, but there is no emotional intimacy between members of the family, and children are discouraged from relying on others emotionally.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#26

Post by Chris2048 »

phkahler wrote: post #18

I'm still not sure these Asian students make "better" engineers and such. They end up in more prestigious positions due to hiring practices that make it so. But then we see things like the critique of the Toyota software in the sudden acceleration investigation... While over in America with it's "inferior" education system we dominate tech. We want to be more like them, while they want to be more like us.

> While over in America with it's "inferior" education system we dominate tech

This could have helped: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6331897.stm

and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

I can't find it now, but I believed at some point the US held a high percentage of world sci/eng labour. And it's a lot easier to expand hi-tech economy than create it from scratch.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#27

Post by stevenwoo »

phkahler wrote: post #18

I'm still not sure these Asian students make "better" engineers and such. They end up in more prestigious positions due to hiring practices that make it so. But then we see things like the critique of the Toyota software in the sudden acceleration investigation... While over in America with it's "inferior" education system we dominate tech. We want to be more like them, while they want to be more like us.

I don't think one anecdote is a good way to judge an entire nation. On the other side of the coin I can come back with the anecdote that I have worked with some excellent Japanese programmers in the North American branch of a Japanese company, they came over on a type of internal company exchange program. They would have fit in at any high tech company. Of course, only the most exceptional ones would have been eligible to come over here.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#29

Post by sdflkd »

microcolonel wrote: post #13

> Compare that to boys who are supposed to be raised as more independent and tough. Is it possible that the way we raise boys versus girls is what's causing more boys to have trouble paying attention? Self control, willpower, and the ability to pay attention are all non-cognitive skills. If "attachment" and "dependency" are the things that develop a child's non-cognitive skills… could this be why more boys have ADHD…

> I can't remember a time in a Canadian public school where I was asked to do something useful for somebody. I think more of that would have helped a lot in terms of motivation.

I mean we had mandatory volunteer hours? But in general, yes, school is just a day-care and nothing more.

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