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Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

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Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#11
Compare that to boys who are supposed to be raised as more independent and tough. Is it possible that the way we raise boys versus girls is what's causing more boys to have trouble paying attention?

I don't know if "independence" and "toughness" capture what the author wants to talk about. There are cultures built around machismo in which male children are coddled and doted on by their mothers, where it is normal to be a "momma's boy" at home and a swaggering macho in the street. It's also possible to believe in the ideals of equality and interdependence in society at large while having zero emotional intimacy in the home.

That said, it's interesting that Japan has language for talking about this aspect of relationships. To me, it suggests a higher degree of uniformity in attachment styles compared to the United States, where talking about these kinds of relationships feels like a new social development associated with a progressive mentality. I think that historically in the United States, actual behavior at home has been all over the map. Different kids in the same classroom, with the same skin color, accent, and social class, are raised with dramatically different family relationships, often without realizing it until they are much older.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#12
post #9
post #6

>These are things like persistence, self-control, curiosity, conscientiousness, grit, and self-confidence (there are a lot more, too). Side note... The author repeatedly mentioning "grit" and "self-control" seems to be citing (maybe subconsciously) Angela Duckworth's research[1]. As an fyi, there has been criticism of her study: http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2016/05/25/479172868/angela-d... If Duckworth's research i…

IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. There have been twin studies where reading skills, including early childhood reading skills accounted for a lot of perceived IQ differences. Early childhood engagement is incredibly important. We attribute many things to genetics that are outgrowths of a child's home environment. Parents stuck in cycles of inattentive or abusive family situations, over-reliance on shitty daycar…

>IQ is a proxy for lots of other things. [...] Early childhood engagement is incredibly important.

Yes I agree that's very true but it's not relevant to the author's specific paragraph I was highlighting. Your particular statement can be true while simultaneously, Koichi's paragraph is false.

This doesn't have to be some larger debate about nature-vs-nurture. Instead, I'm pointing out an example of reading a paragraph with a critical eye.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#13
> Compare that to boys who are supposed to be raised as more independent and tough. Is it possible that the way we raise boys versus girls is what's causing more boys to have trouble paying attention? Self control, willpower, and the ability to pay attention are all non-cognitive skills. If "attachment" and "dependency" are the things that develop a child's non-cognitive skills… could this be why more boys have ADHD than girls?

No, please read some research, please, for the love of god please stop, no. This conjecture is thoroughly questionable, there is copious research to show these traits developing essentially from birth. The same behavioural differences exist in effectively the same way cross-culturally (including in Japan).

There's more to it, schools in japan place a lot of responsibility on the kids. They are responsible for maintenance of the school (the non-dangerous kind), and later somewhat responsible for governing aspects of the school, among other things.

I can't remember a time in a Canadian public school where I was asked to do something useful for somebody. I think more of that would have helped a lot in terms of motivation.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#14
This resonates a bit with me. The relationship with my mother defined who I am, things like my work ethic, perseverance and so on came from her. She sacrificed her career giving up being printer to work a as a janitor, delivering mail, a security guard just to make sure she was home when I came back from school. Saved money for quite a while out of the little we had to buy me a computer I've been wanted. If it wasn't for that I would been where I am now. Most of all it was just about knowing no matter how hard things got I knew I could always come home and she'd be there. She cared about my grades, asked questions about school. She rarely yelled or forced me to learn, but I could see she was disappointed a bit if she saw I didn't try hard enough. A bit of that desire to see me succeed came from her experience of being force to abandon school after 7 grades and having to look after her siblings. Then having to watch them get advanced degrees and good jobs while she was left mopping floors and washing toilets.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#15
post #2

>how attachment reduces stress Although I'm in the process of reading the article, the title was quite striking to me - the Buddha said almost exactly the opposite - that it is attachment which is the cause of stress, clinging to changing phenomena, hoping they were permanent, or even without realising at the emotional level that they will fade.

It's a misunderstanding of Buddhism to simply run away from all sources of suffering. Suffering must first be acknowledged, then accepted, then transcended. The best things in life take a LOT of suffering to get to. Think about running a marathon. Why do so many people want to do that? It must be worth it for them to suffer so much for it.

Buddhism has a lot in common with Epicureanism. This is the idea that "pleasure" is the greatest good. Epicurus's idea is that pleasure comes from a modest, curious, ascetic lifestyle. That long-term goals are much better than short-term ones.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#16
'The word amae comes from the word amaeru, which, according to Japanese psychoanalyst Takeo Doi (he's the guy who basically made this term a thing), can be defined as "to wish to be loved." On top of this, it has connotations of a need for dependency and a request for indulgence of one's perceived needs. This amae type of relationship is the ideal for all close relationships in Japan. It starts with child and mother, but expands out to student and teacher, student and upperclassmen, salaryman and boss, husband and wife, etc. It's the senpai-kohai relationship in a nutshell. If everyone is able to indulge their needs into everyone else then everything will work out, or so Japanese society has been saying for quite a while now."

I've seen a number of Japanophiles quite taken with this idea of amae, popularized by psychoanalyst Takeo Doi in 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Dependence

To me it sounds like a bunch of Freudian psychobabble or pseudoscience.

The author doesn't even really attempt to empiricially link Japanese amae and non-cognitive skills (persistence, self-control, curiosity, conscientiousness, grit, and self-confidence) in the specific case of Japan—where children should do better on the the Marshmallow Test, if this is accurate.

Tofugu has some great essays on learning Japanese, but this is not one.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#17

'The word amae comes from the word amaeru, which, according to Japanese psychoanalyst Takeo Doi (he's the guy who basically made this term a thing), can be defined as "to wish to be loved." On top of this, it has connotations of a need for dependency and a request for indulgence of one's perceived needs. This amae type of relationship is the ideal for all close relationships in Japan. It starts with child and mother,…

To be critical is to be thinking, but I read this article more as a concept and take the emotional responses that it seems to elicit as a stronger guage of the idea than its factual evidence.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#18
I'm still not sure these Asian students make "better" engineers and such. They end up in more prestigious positions due to hiring practices that make it so. But then we see things like the critique of the Toyota software in the sudden acceleration investigation... While over in America with it's "inferior" education system we dominate tech. We want to be more like them, while they want to be more like us.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#19
The main argument made by this article appears to be following:

* Japanese students students score higher because of the high-stakes college entrance exam system. However, this creates more stress. Japanese students are able to deal with this stress because of closeness with their mothers.

The article mentions studies on young children, but this does not seem particularly relevant because children would not yet be experiencing the stress created by the entrance exam system at this point, unless the argument is that the way children are raised in early childhood leaves them better able to deal with stress for the rest of their life, but I'm not sure there is evidence that Japanese people are better able to deal with stress than Americans in general.

Even if we assume that there is a difference parental involvement that makes them better able to handle stress than children in the US, it seems like a surprising leap to attribute this to this notional Japanese principle of "amae" without even mentioning the fact that the percentage of working mothers in the US is almost double what it is in Japan.

Re: Japanese Education: Amae, Stress, and Perseverence

#20
post #11

Compare that to boys who are supposed to be raised as more independent and tough. Is it possible that the way we raise boys versus girls is what's causing more boys to have trouble paying attention? I don't know if "independence" and "toughness" capture what the author wants to talk about. There are cultures built around machismo in which male children are coddled and doted on by their mothers, where it is normal to…

> It's also possible to believe in the ideals of equality and interdependence in society at large while having zero emotional intimacy in the home.

It's possible but may be harder. Home is like your base camp; you can have a crappy time in the outside world but home is the ultimate fallback and sanctuary. At least that's the ideal scenario. There's no doubt that growing up in a home that is broken or lacking warmth will affect you, and many studies have shown that. Take one: apparently if your parents are divorced, then the chance of your own divorcing will be higher [1], not to mention the other psychological impacts. Now imagine that divorce is normal - actually it is now - what impact does this have on society overall? It will be harder to measure, but it is real, just like those Japanese parents who raise their kids with love ultimately cultivates them into caring (amae context) people.

[1] https://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2012/11/09/is-my-marr...

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