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Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

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Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#161
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a link to the video?

First couple minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ1XLqc5IUg

wow...this is pretty scary.

Imagine if the video didn't have the friendly European accent and patches of green. Imagine if that was a real life scenario and the greens were a hazard.

I wonder if there are more such videos that show Tesla Autopilot freaking out. It would be an eye opener, Tesla's stock price is dependent on Autopilot among other innovations.

Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#162
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just decertify outdated systems. I guess "DRM" for self driving cars is something people will complain about, but for vehicles that have controls it doesn't seem real horrible to have an autonomous system do a check to see if it is still licensed. There could be an emergency override if the person that needed the vehicle didn't know how to drive, an override that automatically issued a fixit ticket.

The thing is that today the average age of cars on the road is something like ten years. Many people don't and many people can't afford to buy new vehicles. They may not have the money to deal with that fixit ticket which probably has to be handled by a licensed service station with a lot of fancy equipment. So, if all this comes to pass, you'll end up with a system where the wealthy lease or ride-share their self-dr…

Sure, I was talking about addressing a particular safety issue with autonomous vehicles, not trying to solve economic inequality.

Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#163
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

googles cars have gotten in a few fender benders and side swipes people have died using teslas autopilot

That also could be because autopilot is only usable on highways (IIRC) and the fatality rate per accident on highways is much higher than standard town/city driving. Either way there's not nearly enough data to draw conclusions from.

Google's self-driving cars started on highways (easier problem to tackle) before moving on to city streets.

Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#164
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder this about autonomous cars in general from any company. They're cool tech and in Europe, they can really help solve several last leg problems and cut down on car ownership (I really don't think people should be able to own self driving cars. They really need airplane style maintenance for sensors and companies need to work together so all fleets have the latest safety and security updates). However I don't r…

Haven't really thought about the safety and maintenance part of this before. If people own their self-driving cars I suppose there's also a chance they can opt-out of software updates, which would potentially be very dangerous. I do believe that the autonomous car future will have room for owned vehicles, but at this stage I don't think any of us really know how it will shake out.

Brings to mind the situation the SodaStream company is in in most countries: pressurized gas canisters aren't safe for untrained people to do maintenance on (e.g. refill) themselves, so it's mostly illegal to own them without a license. Thus, the company operates a 'club' that lends them to people, so that the people are never the legal property-owners of the bottles. But this allows the 'club' to be able to recall the bottle at any time, and since it's not yours, you have to comply.

Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you slept through an ethics class

There are different kinds of ethics.

The one where you build and market something but then it turns out to be something less than expectations.

Ethic issues arise when the expectation is that the occupants will live and then your product falling short on those critical constraint.

Because when you design something for the masses, you are directly responsible for the deaths caused by your product.

This is not a matter of philosophy, from one engineer to another, it's our duty.

Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hyperloop One is working on this. Small self driving cubicles drive around the city and pop into larger pods that go 700 mph in the Hyperloop between cities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fze5spdN3nU

Seems a bit gimmicky (it's the hyperloop after all). If the self-driving car is the vehicular equivalent of a hot desk, why not just exit it and walk into the hyperloop pod, instead of transporting tonnes of weight of interchangeable self-driving car? Then just hop into a different one that's waiting at the other end.

Disclaimer: I'm starting a job at Hyperloop soon, but haven't actually been told anything about the hardware yet (I'm joining as a software dev), so this is all not-NDA-violating speculation:

I believe the cars are also pressure vessels and life support systems. My student team looked into this side of the problem last year, and making the entire ~40 ft long Hyperloop pod a pressure vessel is really tricky. The two competing forces are the obvious premium on extra mass, and the need for a large opening to load cargo into the pods.

Dealing with all the "human compatibility" problems at the scale of the cars lets you use much smaller pressure vessels (lighter), and makes loading unpressurized cargo drop dead easy.

The other big benefit is that loading the Hyperloop pods is really difficult. You'd ideally like to be launching a pod into the tube every 30 seconds or less, to get the best return on your infrastructure investment. Achieving that by walking people right up to the 40 ft vehicles and having them all file in like a commercial flight is just about impossible. With mobile sub-pods you can have a far smaller station, and just load sub-pods as they arrive into the next departing pod.

Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot more tesla cars than google cars. And I don't think there was a single death directly because of autopilot (not 100% sure though). Also, autopilot is safer, so it actually _saved_ lives.

If downvoters don't believe autopilot is safer, here's article about NHTSA report: http://bgr.com/2017/01/19/tesla-autopilot-crash-safety-stati...

I'd guess the downvotes are more for this part:

> I don't think there was a single death directly because of autopilot (not 100% sure though).

There was a death, and it was very prominent.

Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#168

Am I the only one feeling the press + big tech narrative of "driverless vehicles = safety" is way ahead of itself? OK, "driver error is blamed for 94% of crashes", but what is the validation strategy to show where driverless cars can quantifiably improve? In 2016, Philip Koopman of CMU discusses that there are non-trivial engineering challenges of achieving safety in NHTSA Level 4 vehicle automation: https://users.ec…

No you are not! HN seems to think the same way, and it is one of the worst cases of rose colored glasses I have ever witnessed. What about the cost? Who is going to be able to afford this? Also, what about people that rely on a vehicle for work? Retrofit $75K work trucks with another $75K in self driving gizmos? Find me a practical plumber, carpenter, A/C, lock smith, self-employed guy/gal that will sign up for that!…

I'm curious - where did you come up with your $75k cost for retrofitting existing vehicles?

Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#169
This is an important step for testing, and I'm surprised that this is being spun as a move towards commercialization.

As of right now, waymo has only been doing what could metaphorically be called unit testing. That is, they test the cars behavior in very controlled but unrealistic environments, looking for very specific responses. The accident rate that they've incurred is likely ridiculously skewed: they've been driving in good weather, on meaningless routes (not chosen by destination, but by route features), at relatively safe times of day, at slow speeds, and they've been doing it extremely cautiously with engineers ready to take over in a moments notice.

This is exactly what they should have been doing, but politically it is misleading. Most human drivers, given those same constraints, would also do extremely well and way better than average. They've done well, but we have little basis for comparison with the average driver.

This is the first step towards integration testing. They get to see how the cars behavior integrates together across various scenarios that are much closer to real life. They are driving on actual routes that real people travel on...routes that aren't chosen in order to test a specific behavior.

Accident rates are going to go up. That's a good thing...its a move towards the things humans find more difficult too. We should, however, expect slowing progress to level 4 autonomy. This is typical of system capability growth; exponential in the beginning, asymptotic near the end. People that are rushing this are out of line; akin to immediate commercializations of lab rat successes. Give them time.

Re: Alphabet's Self-Driving Cars to Get Their First Real Riders

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you slept through an ethics class

Maybe they just subscribe to an extreme utilitarian ethical philosophy?

Well, if Tesla was a Japanese company and people died, ritual suicide would be the one of two possible options. The other is dishonor.
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