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Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

belitsoft.com

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Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#181
post #114

What's up with the phrase, "Still programming?" Would anyone think it odd for a 60-year-old physician to still be doctoring, or a 60-year-old lawyer to still practice law. Or for that matter for a 60-year-old artist or craftsperson to "still" pursue their craft. Corporate culture embraces the notion of management as a profession. I think programming would benefit greatly from more of a tradecraft model, where leaders…

> Or for that matter for a 60-year-old artist or craftsperson to "still" pursue their craft. I still find it rare for 50 or 60-something designers to still be actively hands-on designing purely as a designer. At a certain point, a lot of the ones I know of migrate into creative direction and ideation, delegating the hands-on work to younger designers. It actually scares me a tad because I like being hands-on and gene…

Faster? Probably. Faster at making mistakes, certainly. More talented? Absolutely not. That's the myopia of SV's cult of youth.

We're all running the same hardware, and there is very little that does not get better with experience.

If you want an analogy in a different field, consider Dale Chihuly. From his wiki page:

>In 1976, while Chihuly was in England, he was involved in a head-on car accident during which he flew through the windshield.[6] His face was severely cut by glass and he was blinded in his left eye. After recovering, he continued to blow glass until he dislocated his right shoulder in a 1979 bodysurfing accident. No longer able to hold the glass blowing pipe, he hired others to do the work. Chihuly explained the change in a 2006 interview, saying "Once I stepped back, I liked the view," and pointed out that it allowed him to see the work from more perspectives and enabled him to anticipate problems faster. Chihuly describes his role as "more choreographer than dancer, more supervisor than participant, more director than actor."

There is no inherent reason a more managerial position involves less creativity. It can frequently enable more.

Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#182
post #82

45. Still coding, probably until I die. Light years ahead of younger developers in the following: * Writing less code * Writing maintainable code * Re-using existing code (requires reading existing code) * Know how APIs should be written * Knowing how to properly map associations * Know when or when not to use another library * Knowing when to tell a product manager to go back and do some more product managing * Know…

> Saying "I don't know" when asked "How long will it take" or "When will it be done" ~5 years experience speaking: How do you do this? I have a very good boss and he knows things, objectively, like "estimates are very squishy," and "developers suck at estimating time" etc. But he still demands time estimates to give clients. Our clients are often agencies, and they get it as well. I do estimates like "10-40 hours, de…

In most places "I don't know" doesn't have much effect. Just means the estimate comes from somewhere else. Another developer, or a PM.

People are just trying to make decisions about spending money, keeping clients informed, etc.

There are some research and moon shot type exceptions. But, for the most part, estimates are a necessary evil.

Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#183
post #82

45. Still coding, probably until I die. Light years ahead of younger developers in the following: * Writing less code * Writing maintainable code * Re-using existing code (requires reading existing code) * Know how APIs should be written * Knowing how to properly map associations * Know when or when not to use another library * Knowing when to tell a product manager to go back and do some more product managing * Know…

> Saying "I don't know" when asked "How long will it take" or "When will it be done" ~5 years experience speaking: How do you do this? I have a very good boss and he knows things, objectively, like "estimates are very squishy," and "developers suck at estimating time" etc. But he still demands time estimates to give clients. Our clients are often agencies, and they get it as well. I do estimates like "10-40 hours, de…

I'll often say something like "I don't know off the top of my head, but if you want I can get back to you with an estimate."

Once it's clear that I'm going to spend some non-trivial amount of time working on the estimate, the answer is often, "No, don't bother."

On the other hand, if person asking does want me to get back to them, I now have the time to do a good estimate—research the problem, break down the parts of the solution, think about the unknowns. Even a "good" estimate is still squishy, but it does tend to be based on explicit assumptions, and often flushes out hidden design or spec issues.

Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#184
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying "I don't know" when asked "How long will it take" or "When will it be done" ~5 years experience speaking: How do you do this? I have a very good boss and he knows things, objectively, like "estimates are very squishy," and "developers suck at estimating time" etc. But he still demands time estimates to give clients. Our clients are often agencies, and they get it as well. I do estimates like "10-40 hours, de…

The idea behind estimates is to get you to think about the scope the work that is to be done. Quickly walk yourself through the process, give a SWAG, do your best to track your time spent on the task, then review what you got right and wrong in your estimate. It's less about giving the exact time required (in theory - some managers will never understand that) and more about estimating if you have time to complete X,…

SWAG means what in your example?

Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#185
post #36

I'm 42, programming is the fun part of the job (meetings, nonsensical time estimates and travel tend to be worst part of the job). Had a computer my whole life (Vic-20, oh yeah!) I strongly agree with what others have said in the article: Keep learning new things. I did nothing but C++ for 13 years (console games) and felt like a dinosaur. Despite the fact that there are still (a few) C++ jobs out there, I made a poi…

I'm 63 and started coding FORTRAN in High School on a GE teletype. Did just a little coding. Went to college and took a FORTRAN class and a PL1 class. I loved PL1. All my undergraduate coding was with punch cards. IBM 360/50. Im graduate school for engineering I coded just FORTRAN with punch card images but on a terminal. So that was 1000 times better than physical cards. IBM 3090. Then Apple II, IBM PC, IBM PC-XT, I…

Punch card images?

Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason graybeards are valuable. It's not that they're over 50 or 60. It's experience. A full-stack developer with 20 years' worth of experience will not make certain kinds of mistakes.

Does anyone with 20 years experience refer to themselves as a "full-stack developer?"

When you call yourself a 'computer programmer' and noone calls you back on your resume because they think that is a different thing, then yes.

Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full stack is just new age lingo, and sure why not. We say AI (shudder) these days instead of ML, we say devops instead of sysadmin, we say cloud instead of vps/hosting. Times change and so does language, true to any old fart out there, and the old farts to be.

"We say AI (shudder) these days instead of ML" I thought it was the other way around. With ML taking a more statistical approach to traditional AI problems.

Apparently the new hotness is AI. The last five years have seen titles with similar(ish) roles evolve from Data Scientist -> ML Engineer -> AI Engineer

Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a reason graybeards are valuable. It's not that they're over 50 or 60. It's experience. A full-stack developer with 20 years' worth of experience will not make certain kinds of mistakes.

Does anyone with 20 years experience refer to themselves as a "full-stack developer?"

No, no, that's just today speak for "systems developer". Really, someone who can dev/debug run-times for any languages, write C10K networking code, write good Haskell code, do wonders with average SQL RDBMSes, suffer through JS, and put together a complete solution.

I actually like the term "full stack developer". I take it to mean: can handle anything from assembly to HLL and everything in between.

Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone with 20 years experience refer to themselves as a "full-stack developer?"

No, no, that's just today speak for "systems developer". Really, someone who can dev/debug run-times for any languages, write C10K networking code, write good Haskell code, do wonders with average SQL RDBMSes, suffer through JS, and put together a complete solution. I actually like the term "full stack developer". I take it to mean: can handle anything from assembly to HLL and everything in between.

I always took "full stack" to imply web stack, like MEAN or LAMP. Maybe I'm misusing it, but I tend to call myself a full stack developer and I don't know a lot about assembly or low-level languages like C.

Re: Software Developers after 40, 50 and 60 Who're Still Coding

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone with 20 years experience refer to themselves as a "full-stack developer?"

No, no, that's just today speak for "systems developer". Really, someone who can dev/debug run-times for any languages, write C10K networking code, write good Haskell code, do wonders with average SQL RDBMSes, suffer through JS, and put together a complete solution. I actually like the term "full stack developer". I take it to mean: can handle anything from assembly to HLL and everything in between.

Obviously, many an upvoter like your "suffer through JS" bit of provocation (while the rest being surprising silent so far, ..why??).

:)

edit: ah, look, that's just a fresh comment, that's why then

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