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CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

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Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely think you should be able to record the police. But following them around is potentially unsafe for everyone involved. It's also a good way to harass good people out of the profession (the worse a job is, the more you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to fill it). In addition, it absolutely can be a misdemeanor to harass people, government employee or not. No one deserves to be insulted. The problem…

How is following police unsafe for everyone involved?

The law states you can get as close to a foot provided you are not interfering with an investigation and filming a police officer or getting close to a police officer is not in and of itself interfering.

Corespondent safety is up to the corespondent, not the police. The police only have a reasonable expectation of safety up to a point. A person filming from across the street and/or well within view of a police officer is in no way endangering an officers safety. Chris intentionally stayed on the sidewalk between the east and west bound lanes of traffic to avoid police interactions and still be able to get video of the checkpoint from a safe distance. The officers had already identified the people recording from across the street as they had sent an officer over conspicuously to get an identification. When Chris started crossing the street the officers immediately recognized the street crossing and preceded to cross themselves from the other direction confronting the video recording. There was no significant amount of traffic on this road due to the time and activists alerting motor vehicles of the checkpoint far ahead. 90% of the traffic was successfully re-routed. There were no arrests for DUI that night and the only reason these checkpoints continue to be operated is for federal funding purposes. If there is no DUI arrests the validity of the authorization of the checkpoint becomes invalid. Theoretically the case should be thrown out if the right motions are made at the right time.

Now it is possible you can get into unsafe positions, but in almost all incidents it is completely safe to get VERY close. That said Chris, JP, and others were prevented from getting close enough to properly document the improperly conducted sobriety checkpoint. Chris tends to stay at a good distance or at least a safe visible distance if he gets closer.

The police did not follow the plan laid out under the superior court for which authorized the checkpoint. The police were in contempt of the order for going outside the checkpoint, putting up closed sidewalk signs, which also hindered the reporting by press of both the arrest and the checkpoint. There were also probably other crimes committed by the police. Notices to quit will be forthcoming and numerous complaints have already been filed against the Manchester police department prior to this interaction.

It's likely a properly brought lawsuit will result in $50,000 damages settlement for Chris and/or New England Cop Chasers as has happened in similar cases of the past. Look up the arrest of Carla Gericke for similar charges (disorderly conduct and resisting arrest, which was really just for filming police):

http://freekeene.com/2014/05/23/fsp-president-wins-federal-c...

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excusable in a war zone, not in a policing action. Then again a man firing 100 machine gun rounds would be almost unheard of in any other developed country, so maybe the US does qualify as a war zone.

The news article was wrong, it wasn't a machine gun. It was a semi-automatic rifle, hardly different than the rifle that Anders Breivik used to kill scores of people in Norway. An example of actual machine guns used would be the rifles used by French citizens to kill over a hundred people in the Bataclan theater (AKMs). They also used hand grenades and high explosive (TATP) suicide belts. In the Charlie Hebdo attacks…

If you search for Ben Ledford's arrest record in Sacramento County's inmate records database (http://www.sacsheriff.com/inmate_information/SearchNames.asp...), one of the items he is charged under indeed is PC 32625(A) -- possession of a machine gun.

So, not sure if the news article is necessarily wrong. Clearly there is some prosecutor out there who believes that what Ben Ledford possessed qualified as the definition of a machine gun under California law.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, that's an assault rifle, predecessor to the M16. Only available as semi-automatic for civilian, if not modified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_variant I don't know how you American call that, but I'd consider that as war equipment.

"Assault Rifle" is a defined term as well which is basically the same as "machine gun". Both require the weapon to be "select fire" which means it can be set to fire more than one round per trigger pull. An AR-15 is neither an Assault Rifle nor a Machine Gun. In actuality, an AR-15 is the same as any other semi-automatic rifle in function. It just looks scarier so it's treated different than others. For example, many…

> "Assault Rifle" is a defined term as well which is basically the same as "machine gun".

The usual definition is quite distinct from the usual definition of machine gun.

> Both require the weapon to be "select fire" which means it can be set to fire more than one round per trigger pull.

Actually, no; the term is "selective fire", and while that's part of the usual definition of an assault rifle (which typically have semiautomatic, burst, and sometimes full-auto modes), it's not for machine gun, and machine guns are quite often full-auto only. An assault rifle also is a weapons that is deisgned to be fired unsupported (though it may also integrate a bipod) and which has a fixed, folding, or telescoping butt stock. While a machine gun may have none of those things, and may be designed to be fired only mounted.

> In actuality, an AR-15 is the same as any other semi-automatic rifle in function.

AR-15 is problematic to categorize, since the original Armalite AR-15 is a selective-fire traditional assault rifle, and other rifles to which that moniker is applied (which is sometimes used as a catch-all for the whole family of variants of that original design, which the US military adopted as the M16 series, and the M4 series) may either also be selective-fire assault rifles or civilian variants of the same design with variations in a few key components that render them semi-auto only.

At the same time, Colt currently markets a subset of it's line of civilian semi-automatic variations of that design as the AR-15 line (which was done after the Federal Assault Weapons ban specifically to take advantage of the AR-15 moniker's association with assault weapons.)

> For example, many states list the AR-15 as an "assault weapon" (made up term with no concrete definition)

Every state that has an "assault weapons" law also gives it concrete definitions. Typically, that's done by identifying both feature sets and a set of named existing weapons which are included (along with any copies or duplicates) regardless of whether they meet the feature sets.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#244
post #112
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so maybe the US does qualify as a war zone. It sure does. We are constantly at war against tyranny and citizen owned guns are one of our best weapons. I don't think any other "developed country" has been democratic as long as we have without lapsing back into tyranny every other century.

1. Are you sure about the correlation between the two? 2. Off the top of my head, the UK, France, Sweden, etc. have been democratic since at least the end of the 19th century.

> Are you sure about the correlation between the two?

No, but can you point to any effective tyrannies where the citizens can freely buy and own guns? It seems as though a universal prerequisite to tyranny is gun control.

> Off the top of my head, the UK, France, Sweden, etc. have been democratic since at least the end of the 19th century.

That's not very long. It turns out that long term democracies are really hard and without constantly reinforcing checks against tyranny, you'll find your country has slipped back into one before you know it. It's happening right now with Turkey.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#245
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you clarify what you understand as alternatives to "aiming to kill" and how they would be effectively different from "aiming to kill"? Edit: clarified question.

They aren't different at all from "aiming to stop", but the difference from "aiming to kill" is enormous. For example, aiming at the leg can be just as effective as aiming at the heart.

Sorry, I can see how my question was unclear. I mean how "aiming to kill" is effectively different from "aiming to stop". I've edited it for clarity.

There are a couple of issues with the idea of, say, aiming at the leg.

* A leg wound may not stop the person.

* A leg wound can be lethal: you can bleed out very quickly if the femoral artery is hit.

* The trajectory of a bullet (and its fragments) once it impacts the body can be very unpredictable: a bullet entering the leg may strike bone and enter the chest cavity.

And all of these assume precise aim under stress. You mention aiming for the heart: police won't generally be aiming for something as small as the heart. Police (and all people using firearms) should receive the best training they can (and likely more and better firearms training than is often available today), but precise aim under stress is no easy task. They may be aiming for the torso (which of course includes the heart), because shots to the torso are generally more effective at stopping a person and it's a relatively large target: shots are more likely to hit and therefore less likely to miss (and hit something else: all bullets land somewhere).

Firearms are deadly force. Police have less-lethal alternatives available as well, and should be trained to use them effectively when it's appropriate to do so. If a police officer resorts to deadly force, the goal should be to stop the person as effectively and quickly as possible.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#246
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I think we both understand the comparison well enough, the disagreement is about the characterization. My position is that police feeling nervous about guns shouldn't factor into their rules of engagement, because the statistics show that violent encounters are extremely rare. I don't want to mischaracterize your position so I'll leave you to make a comparable statement if you want.

Thank you. Well it's simple: we agree that violent encounters are rare. And we presumably agree that it's not the incidence rate but that times the cost of being shot that informs your actions. So the actions can very well be changed by even a 1% chance per encounter of something like that. Would you fly with a 1% chance of death? How would that affect the economy?

Yeah, but what's the real chance per encounter?

There's 600-700 thousand sworn officers in the US. Assume they interact with 1 person per day each (they aren't on duty everyday, they probably interact with more people than that on duty days). So it's easily in the ballpark of 200 million encounters each year. There's less than 200 officers killed in the line of duty each year.

You are sort of saying that the police are aggressive because they don't want to die. I'm saying that (given the statistics for the US) they shouldn't have much leeway to let that feeling influence their actions.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why shouldn't they? Police departments and city officials across the US routinely lie, obsfucate and remove any sense of accountability for police officers who commit crimes or make mistakes. Look at the case of the murder of Laquan McDonald in Chicago. The lying and stonewalling is a common occurrence. It's not just a few bad apples, it's a bad system that promotes escalation and grants power without accountabil…

Being annoying or insulting isn't a crime, but there are lots of other things that are crimes. If you want to hold the system accountable, don't give them any excuse to take you down. If you're going around filming cops, there may not be any legal requirement to be polite and respectful, but you had better be polite and respectful if you want to be effective.

Generally JP and Chris (can't say that for every person in New Hampshire) are respectful and polite when going out and filming police. It's only when police instigate by interacting with and attempting to disrupt the filming that either comes off as disrespectful.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Judging by the "hundreds of rounds", it might have been modified to automatic or it's an old model. Most likely not, you can empty 30 round mags in 15 seconds or so.

Correct me if I am wrong but this weapon doesn't come with 30 round mags and these mags are not easily accessible for sale.

Depends on where you are. In some states 30 round magazines are quite easy to come by. A quick internet search will provide many legal retailers.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Assault Rifle" is a defined term as well which is basically the same as "machine gun". Both require the weapon to be "select fire" which means it can be set to fire more than one round per trigger pull. An AR-15 is neither an Assault Rifle nor a Machine Gun. In actuality, an AR-15 is the same as any other semi-automatic rifle in function. It just looks scarier so it's treated different than others. For example, many…

> "Assault Rifle" is a defined term as well which is basically the same as "machine gun". The usual definition is quite distinct from the usual definition of machine gun. > Both require the weapon to be "select fire" which means it can be set to fire more than one round per trigger pull. Actually, no; the term is "selective fire", and while that's part of the usual definition of an assault rifle (which typically have…

Agreed on all points. I just tried to keep my response concise for the "non gun people" here.

And for the last point I know states have defined the term individually. However the ATF has never issued a letter defining "assault weapon" like they have for other grey area weapon classifications. So it's just a hodgepodge of messy rules random states have (mostly based on cosmetic features).

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that behavior is questionable, there is at least merit in raising the argument of parity. If it is unreasonable for this man to behave like that, then why is it reasonable for men vested with the authority to enforce the law for the peace of society? If we can succeed in proving that this man's behavior is contradictory with what we want for society, then it should follow that the same applies to the police f…

Chris acted irrationally and had the right to do so. However, by his intent to spread irrationality by removing the officer's choice, the officers were eventually baited into acting irrationally which then led to the arrest. If they knew more about these types of removal of choice, and how they may spread by their very presence, it may have had a different and more desirable outcome for all involved. Detecting trolls…

It's not irrational to stand your ground. More people need to stand up for their rights. The reason police are able to get away with this behavior is because nobody stands their ground. Not only do you need to make the police understand that we the people are not afraid of them, we need to go on the offensive to ensure they're properly trained and ideally punished for activity that interferes with press and or civilian accountability of the police.
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