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The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

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Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#91

Post by iconjack »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #47
lordnacho wrote: post #26

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

Both of your examples are things that have been common forever. There were germ theory skeptics, still are, that ignored the science showing how many deaths doctor hand washing prevented. And radiation healers were massive in the early twentieth century.

It wasn't just that there were germ theory skeptics, it was that its detractors were the consensus (ahem) unwilling to listen. Read the wiki on germ theory and you'll see its timeline consists of one heretic after another being shot down by the 97%.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#92

Post by stan_rogers »

the_af wrote: post #45
eightysixfour wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours. The problem is when this wrong headedness starts to interfere at a public policy level, like climate change.

It's also extremely difficult to talk to someone who truly thinks the moon is square. Suppose I actually want to talk about the moon? Or suppose I admit there's a lot I don't know about astronomy (a fascinating subject!), and this person thinks it's an invitation to speak about astrology? What I mean is, it doesn't even have to affect public policy to be bothersome. It also affects informal small-talk with acquaintan…

There is, however, a rather large difference between "bothersome" and "a bunch of idiots voting for things that are going to kill people, possibly even me... and winning".

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#93

Post by scottLobster »

sofal wrote: post #62
danso wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has changed his mind, I've found that it is wrong to think that minds can't be changed. When people complain about how minds aren't changed, they are typically complaining about minds not changing now , i.e. At the point of debate. But minds can change over time, it's just that you don't get that immediate feedback that you want.

Exactly. I'm tired of self-proclaimed internet veterans witnessing people digging in on individual online conversations and then concluding that nobody ever changes their mind and all debate/discussion is pointless. I have done a 180 on so many positions I used to have thanks in no small part to people online who did not take this asinine defeatist perspective and went ahead and engaged in debate while the other side…

The issue is that most people on social media aren't looking for enlightenment, they're looking for validation. If they don't find it from one source they'll likely seek out a more suitable one. The only one who can change a person's mind is that person, all the rest of us can do is encourage.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#94

Post by 77pt77 »

canadian_voter wrote: post #34
lordnacho wrote: post #26

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. When I was young, lonely and isolated, the internet was a godsend: it connected me to like minded individuals and expanded my horizons. It exposed me to a world of ideas about science, technology, history, politics, music, etc. at a time when everyone around me was mentally stagnant…

> She insisted on showing off her stool after the process was complete. She said she could see the little "bugs" that had been in her system. Then we discovered that she had forgotten to put in the batteries.

There's so much wrong with this...

Reminds me of the audiophile that was very happy with his top of the line amplifier that he custom built. It was clearly much better than the previous one.

Turns out he had forgotten to turn it on and was using the old one.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#95

Post by [deleted] »

pavlov wrote: post #37
lordnacho wrote: post #26

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

I personally know a man in his late thirties who nearly died of AIDS a few years ago because he had read "credible sources" on the Internet and convinced himself that HIV is harmless. This happened already in the early 2000s. For over a decade, he ignored his HIV status (not knowing either way) thanks to the "advice" from contrarian experts on the Internet. One day he finally had a flu that didn't seem to go away. A…

[deleted]

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#96

Post by 77pt77 »

H4CK3RM4N wrote: post #70
canadian_voter wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. When I was young, lonely and isolated, the internet was a godsend: it connected me to like minded individuals and expanded my horizons. It exposed me to a world of ideas about science, technology, history, politics, music, etc. at a time when everyone around me was mentally stagnant…

The most terrifying part of the flat earth movement is that most people don't have the basic knowledge necessary to argue against them.

It won't matter because flat earthers don't have the basic knowledge to understand arguments.

It's like I usually say

> You can't fix crazy and you can't fix stupid.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#97

Post by 77pt77 »

openasocket wrote: post #84
pavlov wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally know a man in his late thirties who nearly died of AIDS a few years ago because he had read "credible sources" on the Internet and convinced himself that HIV is harmless. This happened already in the early 2000s. For over a decade, he ignored his HIV status (not knowing either way) thanks to the "advice" from contrarian experts on the Internet. One day he finally had a flu that didn't seem to go away. A…

AIDS denialism is a curious thing. There was this magazine Continuum which claimed AIDS was a conspiracy unrelated to HIV. The tragic irony is that the magazine stopped publishing because all the major contributors died of AIDS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_(magazine)

It ran from December 1992 until February 2001, ceasing publication because all the contributors had died of AIDS-defining clinical conditions.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#98

Post by 77pt77 »

sofal wrote: post #62
danso wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has changed his mind, I've found that it is wrong to think that minds can't be changed. When people complain about how minds aren't changed, they are typically complaining about minds not changing now , i.e. At the point of debate. But minds can change over time, it's just that you don't get that immediate feedback that you want.

Exactly. I'm tired of self-proclaimed internet veterans witnessing people digging in on individual online conversations and then concluding that nobody ever changes their mind and all debate/discussion is pointless. I have done a 180 on so many positions I used to have thanks in no small part to people online who did not take this asinine defeatist perspective and went ahead and engaged in debate while the other side…

> I have done a 180 on so many positions

Care to give any examples and the reasons for your first position and subsequent change?

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#99

Post by kordless »

canadian_voter wrote: post #34
lordnacho wrote: post #26

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. When I was young, lonely and isolated, the internet was a godsend: it connected me to like minded individuals and expanded my horizons. It exposed me to a world of ideas about science, technology, history, politics, music, etc. at a time when everyone around me was mentally stagnant…

> That same power to connect can lead people down a dark or dangerous path. Approach the internet with an uncritical mind and you could emerge as a flat-earther, anti-vaccer, or worse.

Maybe. Or, perhaps it's the tendency of irrationality to beg more irrationality today, when a large number of vectors exists in which the irrationality can spread. If someone said something irrational and blaming 30 years ago, a few people might hear it and think, "huh, that's a weird thought". Most would probably not repeat the thought to anyone later because most people don't want to be viewed as irrational or weird by others. Maybe a few people might, because they were already irrational, but the chances were low that enough would repeat it to where it could spread.

30 years later, two things have happened to increase the likelihood of a "viral irrationality" to root and grow at increasing rates: 1. lots of people on the Internet and 2. lots of irrational things being said on the Internet. I would classify most of the irrationality on the Internet as others speaking for others thoughts or feelings. Check out Alex Jones just pulling shit out of his ass for example, under the guise of "news", but really just being a performance artist. He's "entertaining" people by pretending to be trustworthy, and keeping it going by making anyone listen to him question the "real" news (of which is he is not a member) to keep the schtick going.

I look at it more like a weird NP problem, where increasing amounts of time are needed to unravel the logic being presented as it spreads further into the aggregate, given it's self-referential in nature to answer leading questions with more irrationality. The blame game people play might be likened to two traveling salesmen trying to solve each other's problems of shortest path while also traveling paths that avoid or overlap each other. Given certain paths, the salesman may find themselves in a loop, blaming each other for being stuck, but unable to stop doing the calculations to get themselves out of the pickle.

Check out the concept of a double bind. It's relevant to this discussion.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#100

Post by thearn4 »

iamacynic wrote: post #32
lordnacho wrote: post #26

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

40s, huh? i'm in my 30s and i learned about 5 years ago that changing peoples' minds is an impossible, pointless task. people come to their own conclusions based on the bullshit they choose to surround themselves with. you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours. it's far better to focus on your own knowledge and self improvement. it yields a higher return on investmen…

For what it's worth, I've had luck moving some people's anti-science opinions by meeting them at their level of understanding, and offering some compassion. Might help that they are relatives and not total strangers though.
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