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The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

nymag.com

31–40 of 155 posts

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#31

I see this sort of thing on Hacker News all the time. Programmers that are, I'm sure, the top of their field comment in threads about biology or something out of their field with the most silly and wrong answers. A thread about nutrition or something out of their realm of expertise on here is about as useful as reading a Facebook or YouTube comment chain. That doesn't stop them from speaking authoritatively about it.…

Well, in regards to the article I think experimentation should be cheered and not tossed away as stupidity. Wheeler isn't actually a good example of this effect.

Creating environments where people, especially people with the correct answers, are not afraid to voice their sincere opinions without the fear of being called or looked at as stupid is what is needed. Experts today, are now challenged, by persons who are incorrect and correct. An authority usually tries to shut up both as if the two were the same.

"something out of their realm of expertise on here is about as useful as reading a Facebook or YouTube comment chain."

Casting aside the clear flaw there (which YT, FB chains?), I'd bet on HN against the general public because people here are more likely scientifically minded and therefore self-correcting.

"That doesn't stop them from speaking authoritatively about it. :)"

This effect should only really matter when it comes to an individual having authority (decisions or influence) over others.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#32

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

40s, huh? i'm in my 30s and i learned about 5 years ago that changing peoples' minds is an impossible, pointless task. people come to their own conclusions based on the bullshit they choose to surround themselves with.

you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours.

it's far better to focus on your own knowledge and self improvement. it yields a higher return on investment.

if you want to affect change, throw your time and money into actually influential things, not social media arguments.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#33

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

40s, huh? i'm in my 30s and i learned about 5 years ago that changing peoples' minds is an impossible, pointless task. people come to their own conclusions based on the bullshit they choose to surround themselves with. you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours. it's far better to focus on your own knowledge and self improvement. it yields a higher return on investmen…

> you could think the moon is square, doesn't bother me one bit. i'm living my life, not yours.

The problem is when this wrong headedness starts to interfere at a public policy level, like climate change.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#34

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even.

When I was young, lonely and isolated, the internet was a godsend: it connected me to like minded individuals and expanded my horizons. It exposed me to a world of ideas about science, technology, history, politics, music, etc. at a time when everyone around me was mentally stagnant.

That same power to connect can lead people down a dark or dangerous path. Approach the internet with an uncritical mind and you could emerge as a flat-earther, anti-vaccer, or worse.

I've tried to explain to a friend why vaccinations are a good idea, and I get a bunch of crap about how modern medicine doesn't work for her, and how she took a homeopathic vaccine, went to India, and didn't get ill.

I once knew someone who bought an expensive electronic detoxification device. The idea was you held on to the handles and it sent purifying waves through your body, killing any parasites. She insisted on showing off her stool after the process was complete. She said she could see the little "bugs" that had been in her system. Then we discovered that she had forgotten to put in the batteries.

I knew someone else who wanted to invest in a $50,000 machine that made similarly dubious claims. The idea was to make the money back by selling treatments. Thankfully her daughter talked her out of it.

Gullibility is a dangerous thing, especially at the intersection of personal health and second party financial incentive.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#35

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

It's not that people "haven't learned to think". It's that their perception of reality is driven by their ego.

It must be understood that this is the case with all mentally competent people. An ego's appetite can be trained and controlled, but generally speaking, everyone wants to see themselves in the same basic, overwhelmingly positive way.

When an "empiricist" comes into the fray, they've trained their ego's appetite to prefer circumstances that allow themselves to be on the side of "hard data", "scientific consensus", or, as you've put it, "academic orthodoxy". Thus, the empiricist will dismiss theories that seem to be "outside of the orthodoxy" and ridicule their purveyors/supporters/believers.

This is your ego operating to give you the room to feel superior and keep your self-image adequately positive. The same thing is happening in your friend who has the quantum healer machine. They see themselves as someone who is able to spot frauds even when many other people cannot and use this information to their advantage (something you have in common).

Most likely the key difference here is the amount of trust each party has learned to place in secular/technological/academic institutions. You believe you can see the fraud perpetrated on the public by exploitative marketers and snake oil salesmen. They believe they can see the fraud perpetrated on the public by exploitative elitists and the corporate upper class (that's currently suing them for an unpaid medical bill).

The truth is that both perspectives are sometimes valid. "Learning how to think" is learning how to recognize your biases and think about an issue from a neutral, dispassionate perspective, without discounting any potential argument without consideration.

It's never too late to learn that, but most people have internalized their emotional disdain for "the bad guy" that they believe is oppressing them, whomever they assume that is, such that they'd rather make up a justification to discredit the other side's arguments rather than admit that they're potentially, though not necessarily, reasonable. And while overriding this impulse is a great skill to practice, it must be understood that very few people will ever do so to an extent that makes it usable.

---

The key to understanding people, IMO, is recognizing that human decision-making does not operate on objectivity or observation, but rather on the unavoidable and undeviating need to see oneself as intelligent, aware, and discerning.

People must see themselves as important and significant to justify their existence. This is true of all people; it's part of human self-preservation. Do not believe there are exceptions. Most people don't like this explanation because it implies that their self-importance is illusory, which funnily enough, really only reinforces its correctness.

The way to control your ego is to train it to value the right things as signals of importance.

If you want to change someone's mind, you must not argue that their conclusion is incorrect; rather, you must discover what biases and emotional mechanisms are at play in shaping the perception that leads them to that conclusion.

Once you accept this, the world is much easier to understand, social situations are much simpler, sales and marketing become both much more practicable and much easier to notice, and a lot of bitterness and antipathy goes away.

Disclaimer: I have no research or supporting evidence, this is pure conjecture, and there is no reason at all why you should listen to me.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#36

I see this sort of thing on Hacker News all the time. Programmers that are, I'm sure, the top of their field comment in threads about biology or something out of their field with the most silly and wrong answers. A thread about nutrition or something out of their realm of expertise on here is about as useful as reading a Facebook or YouTube comment chain. That doesn't stop them from speaking authoritatively about it.…

This happens on HN within our field too :) . I see stuff hit the front page all the time, only to be ripped to pieces a few hours later when someone that knows what they're doing appears. Do you remember the "super fast hash algorithm" from a few weeks ago that turned out to be rubbish? What about the "high performance TCP proxy" on the front page right now that's not proxying correctly or with unusual speed? People…

>Do you remember the "super fast hash algorithm" from a few weeks ago that turned out to be rubbish? What about the "high performance TCP proxy" on the front page right now that's not proxying correctly or with unusual speed?

Seems like debunking Hacker News stories might make for a fun project.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#37

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

I personally know a man in his late thirties who nearly died of AIDS a few years ago because he had read "credible sources" on the Internet and convinced himself that HIV is harmless.

This happened already in the early 2000s. For over a decade, he ignored his HIV status (not knowing either way) thanks to the "advice" from contrarian experts on the Internet. One day he finally had a flu that didn't seem to go away. A doctor took one look at the lesions on his face and told him the bad news.

He survived, and now he wants to warn everyone about the dangers of hopeful biases when combined with the immense amount of misinformation on the Internet. He's even appeared on national media here in Finland to tell his story, and I admire his courage.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#38
post #3

I've often wondered whether McArthur Wheeler - the lemon juice disguised bank robber discussed in this article - actually had some mental challenges rather than lacked common sense. It seems a whole branch of academia has grown off his unfortunate back...

Is this real? It is unbelievable.

The lemon juice story first appeared in the entertainment section of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette in a compilation format article about dumb criminals. This article was referenced in Dunning's and Kruger's paper, and the story spread from there. The original article looks suspicious to me as well.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ZNlRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DXAD...

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#39

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

> which supposedly connects to one of your auras, and has a nice animation of how it scans every single one of someone's organs.

This kind of things makes me feel sick.

I knew a family, their child got some minor infection, they didn't believe in antibiotics and tried to cure him with "alternative" methods. Suffices to say - that kid is no longer alive.

Edit: I wish they were convicted for manslaughter.

Re: The Internet Isn’t Making Us Dumber – It’s Making Us More ‘Meta-Ignorant’

#40
post #37

The problem with ignorance in the internet age is you can now find sources that confirm your wrong headed ideas, entire ecosystems even. If you haven't learned how to think before becoming an adult, I fear that you won't. Sorry for sounding condescending, but I've run into so many people who are misinformed, and let's just say "misinformed" means they don't know what the academic orthodoxy is in a given field, but th…

I personally know a man in his late thirties who nearly died of AIDS a few years ago because he had read "credible sources" on the Internet and convinced himself that HIV is harmless. This happened already in the early 2000s. For over a decade, he ignored his HIV status (not knowing either way) thanks to the "advice" from contrarian experts on the Internet. One day he finally had a flu that didn't seem to go away. A…

That truly is admirable.

These examples of ignorance remind me of my own similar anecdote:

I attended a dinner, out of politeness, with my grandparents and their friends. A man staying with them saw me puffing on my personal vaporizer, cornered me, and proceeded to tell me that he was diagnosed with lung cancer after trying to switch to a PV himself.

"I smoked cigarettes for 30 years, never had a problem. Those electric things cause cancer!"

Now, I know there is no long term research into electronic cigarettes or their health effects. However, he was clear that he had only quit cigarettes for maybe 2 months before being diagnosed.

To suggest, with a straight face, that 30 years of cigarette smoke couldn't possibly be responsible for his lung cancer...I'm not sure how he came to such a conclusion other than misinformation.

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