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United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

cnn.com

21–30 of 38 posts

Re: United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

#21
post #15

Good article. But I have to ask for clarification for this statement: "Empty seats cost the airlines money, and they need to recoup those losses somehow." What does this mean? The issue here is overbooked seats. If a seat is physically empty during the flight because the passenger just doesn't show up, the airline doesn't lose any money - the ticket/seat is still (pre)paid for. Overbooking is simply a way for the air…

> If a seat is physically empty because the passenger just doesn't show up, the airline doesn't lose any money - the ticket is still paid for. Overbooking is simply a way for the airlines to make extra money on top of what they would normally make Your logic is perfectly reasonable and sound, and it took me many years of working for Big Corp (TM) to understand that is simply not how a big corporation thinks. Once the…

Is it somehow controversial that selling more tickets for flights will tend to lower costs per ticket?

The particular incident isn't really a good one to base discussions on, it was so egregious that the discussions are boring. It shouldn't have happened.

There is a more interesting discussion to have about overbooking, whether to allow it and how to deal with the situation where they get it wrong and don't have enough seats. Maybe the minimum payout for denied boarding should be higher. Maybe the airline should have to start their offers for voluntarily taking a later flight at that price. Maybe the sale process for all tickets should include an option to actually reserve the seat (for a fee).

But there isn't a discussion to have about whether a business should call the police to beat up a customer that they just don't want to serve.

Re: United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

#22
post #10

I wonder why was that exact passenger picked to be removed?

Probably because he paid the lowest fare for that segment and had no frequent flyer status. When involuntarily denying boarding to a passenger, an airline in the US has to provide 4x the fare paid for that segment, up to a maximum of $1350. Some articles incorrectly reported this as "the computer randomly picked" vs "the computer picked".

The insidious part of it is that on more complex itineraries, the regional jet segments are priced rather low. I've flown from Montreal to Dallas-Fort Worth to Tokyo multiple times on American Airlines, and each time the ticket shows the cost of the business class YUL-DFW segment to be $232. If I was IDB'd from that segment (which also wouldn't happen to business class passengers without some major extenuating circumstances), all I would be legally required to be paid would be $232 * 4 = $928. I've seen economy fares on regional jet flights on complex itineraries of about $50, so the legal requirement to deny boarding to that passenger would be $200 cash.

Re: United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

#23
This is not a good take, and poorly written besides. I think it's apparent that the good pilot hasn't been a paying passenger in quite some time.

Nothing in this distinguishes the facts as we know them so far, and doesn't even mention the changes in legality incurred once a paying passenger sits in their purchased seat. For me, the contract of carriage is an important aspect of this story. Heck, I don't even think I've read anything that implicates the pilots on the Dao flight at all.

It reads more as submarine PR to take the heat off the airline and square it on the police, who essentially have zero oversight in Chicago, and which would put the matter into a territory of blamelessness. Further extrapolating, in the inevitable civil case(s), I wonder if the pilot's reasoning could work to reduce punitive damages.

Re: United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

#24
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a seat is physically empty because the passenger just doesn't show up, the airline doesn't lose any money - the ticket is still paid for. Overbooking is simply a way for the airlines to make extra money on top of what they would normally make Your logic is perfectly reasonable and sound, and it took me many years of working for Big Corp (TM) to understand that is simply not how a big corporation thinks. Once the…

Is it somehow controversial that selling more tickets for flights will tend to lower costs per ticket? The particular incident isn't really a good one to base discussions on, it was so egregious that the discussions are boring. It shouldn't have happened. There is a more interesting discussion to have about overbooking, whether to allow it and how to deal with the situation where they get it wrong and don't have enou…

Some upper-scale restaurants charge you a "no-show" fee, using the credit card used for the reservation. Maybe airlines could do this? (Of course, the difference is that restaurants don't receive the actual payment for services with no-shows.)

Re: United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

#25
As a pilot, the author should know that Dao was not interfering with a crew member, because the flight attendants did not become crew members in law until the door was closed (according to 49USC§46501) and/or the aircraft was moving under its own power (according to 14CFR§91). Yes, it's silly, and counterintuitive, and even contradictory. Welcome to law. This is the law that United's defenders keep trying to invoke, but they clearly do not know what the law actually says or means. It's an appeal to an authority that doesn't actually support them. In other words, it's BS.

The point about the deadheading crew is more interesting IMO. It's their arrival that triggered the whole thing. Why were they so late arriving? Did United's logistics screw up by not putting that crew on another flight, or did the crew themselves screw up by not showing up for it? United still hasn't clarified. It is perhaps worthy of note that the deadheaders were the only ones here who were United's responsibility; the rest (and worst) of what happened was on either Republic or Chicago aviation security. United might be faced with a choice between admitting their own direct responsibility for causing this mess vs. having to explain to AFA why they threw union members under the bus. Silence might seem preferable to either of those.

Re: United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

#26
post #7

United is who called airport security to forcibly de-board someone, likely in violation of their contract with them: https://www.facebook.com/erik.bauman/posts/10106083654220072 The crew should absolutely have exhibited some agency and basic human dignity and intervened to prevented airport security for de-boarding a passenger who had already been seated. It would have saved everyone tons of time and their company a…

> United is who called airport security to forcibly de-board someone

Actually no, it was Republic who did that. United definitely screwed up, but not in that particular way.

Re: United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

#27
> I should also emphasize that the nationwide attention to this incident...came because of the actions of Chicago airport security...

> But this whole nightmare occurred because a "deadheading"...

> But let's put the blame squarely where it belongs: on the Chicago airport security officers.

Way to scapegoat airport security, Les. Next time just blame the victim outright.

I'm sure Dao deserved it because he was perpetrating a sit-in protest without a permit on private property. Right?

Re: United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

#28

While the violent part of the incident is the fault of security (why should a non-violent, non-threatening passenger have violence used against him???) the airline should never have been in this position. Stop overbooking flights. Pay to put your 'deadhead' crew on another airline. OR offer passengers an incentive above the one they are entitled to by law instead of trying to get them to accept less than that before…

Stop overbooking flights.

The flight was not oversold. There were 70 seats, 70 passengers, and 70 tickets. It was only the four deadheaders who put capacity over the limit.

Re: United isn't entirely to blame for David Dao's controversial removal from flight

#29
post #7

United is who called airport security to forcibly de-board someone, likely in violation of their contract with them: https://www.facebook.com/erik.bauman/posts/10106083654220072 The crew should absolutely have exhibited some agency and basic human dignity and intervened to prevented airport security for de-boarding a passenger who had already been seated. It would have saved everyone tons of time and their company a…

> United is who called airport security to forcibly de-board someone Actually no, it was Republic who did that. United definitely screwed up, but not in that particular way.

Republic, acting with agency given by United.
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