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South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

arstechnica.com

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Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#31

Post by hackuser »

dba7dba wrote: post #17
paradite wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound like it is perfectly ethical and reasonable to interfere with another sovereign state's defense systems unilaterally. Edit: I think I have read much into the parent comment and made a strawman fallacy here.

I guess you didn't see my comment below that China deployed long range radar system to monitor the sky of South Korea and Japan like 10 years ago? Or are you just ignoring that? US military is present in South Korea and Japan because of N. Korea and China, not anybody else. You don't see such US military presence in NZ or Australia.

> US military is present in South Korea and Japan because of N. Korea and China, not anybody else. / You don't see such US military presence in NZ or Australia.

I'm not sure that paints an accurate picture.

The first reason the U.S. is in Japan and S Korea is because the U.S. won WWII and setup bases in captured territory. If you look at most major U.S. bases around the world, you will notice they are in territory captured in WWII: Germany, Italy, Japan, S Korea, the Philippines (legal and future status uncertain), etc.

It's the same reason the UK controls Gibralter (since a war in ~1704!), Russia controls Kaliningrad (WWII), Taiwan is relatively independent (Japan conquered it in the late 19th century, then the U.S. took it in WWII), Hong Kong (UK in 19th century), etc. It's the spoils of war, and the consequences can last perpetually - until the next major war. Imagine how different China's situation would be if those bases weren't there.

The second reason is that East Asia is militarily unstable, and the U.S. presence provides stability appreciated by all. Otherwise all these very distrustful neighbors would build up militaries, disrupt trade, and end up in wars. China may be the exception, but probably even they don't want the U.S. to just walk away, leave a vacuum of chaos, destabilize the Korean Peninsula, and compel Japan to becoming a full military power again; they probably want to slowly replace U.S. power with their own.

Australia and New Zealand are not militarily unstable, though they do have close relationships with U.S. military and security institutions. The U.S. does base troops in N. Australia now, to support security to the north.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#32

Post by paradite »

fra wrote: post #25
paradite wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you have a point. But I would argue that while intelligence operations are commonplace practices of states, direct military actions require more thoughts and it is not something Chinese government would carry out without proper justification. Basically on this matter, the Chinese government has taken a similar approach as the previous US administration, which is to not take actions. On hindsight of course it is…

No, the chinese government is not adopting the same stance as previous US admins. The US have an embargo against North Korea, whereas the chinese are selling them materials to build their missiles with. They could start by putting political pressure on them, levying trade sanctions and publicly denouncing their nuclear program.

Which they exactly did:

North Korea’s Hydrogen Bomb Claim Strains Ties With China

JAN. 6, 2016

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/07/world/asia/north-korea-ch...

China announces sanctions against North Korea

5 April 2016

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-announces...

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#33

Post by paradite »

mikeash wrote: post #26
paradite wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "They've let their little client state (North Korea) get out of control ... they have nukes ... they should have taken appropriate action years ago." The comment suggests taking actions against possible nuclear development, while China's position has always been "no nuclear on Korean peninsula". We know that the statement or stand had no real effects. So the only other possible alternative would be to interfere dir…

China has been interfering in North Korea since the establishment of the country. If they stopped now, the place would fall apart. So all that comment is really advocating for is a minor change in how they interfere. Noninterference would likely result in rapid collapse and war.

My apologies, maybe I read too much into the parent comment. Well that happens when you are not careful.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#34

Post by freerobots »

mikeash wrote: post #30
freerobots wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the US is taking advantage of the NK situation to "ring China". I consider NK to be a serious threat to the US and her allies but I think the Chinese do not consider NK to be a serious threat to the Chinese. Imagine if Cuba decided to start allowing Chinese anti-missile defense systems at the US' doorstep because we weren't willing to deal with our ally Mexico regarding a conflict that didn't threat us.

I have a hard time seeing why we in the US should care in the least about a missile defense system in Cuba.

I would prefer that China plays a more active role in resolving the situation so I sort of hate to play devil's advocate here but...

The missile defense systems we deployed in SK could be used to track Chinese missiles. My point was imagine the outcry from the US if we perceived that the Chinese were tracking our missiles under the guise of tracking Mexico's.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#35

Post by azernik »

mikeash wrote: post #30
freerobots wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the US is taking advantage of the NK situation to "ring China". I consider NK to be a serious threat to the US and her allies but I think the Chinese do not consider NK to be a serious threat to the Chinese. Imagine if Cuba decided to start allowing Chinese anti-missile defense systems at the US' doorstep because we weren't willing to deal with our ally Mexico regarding a conflict that didn't threat us.

I have a hard time seeing why we in the US should care in the least about a missile defense system in Cuba.

Their problem isn't with the interceptors; it's with the tracking radars. They could theoretically help counteract Chinese missiles and aircraft that are supposed to deny access to Chinese coastal waters in the case of war with the US.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#37

Post by dba7dba »

hackuser wrote: post #31
dba7dba wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you didn't see my comment below that China deployed long range radar system to monitor the sky of South Korea and Japan like 10 years ago? Or are you just ignoring that? US military is present in South Korea and Japan because of N. Korea and China, not anybody else. You don't see such US military presence in NZ or Australia.

> US military is present in South Korea and Japan because of N. Korea and China, not anybody else. / You don't see such US military presence in NZ or Australia. I'm not sure that paints an accurate picture. The first reason the U.S. is in Japan and S Korea is because the U.S. won WWII and setup bases in captured territory. If you look at most major U.S. bases around the world, you will notice they are in territory ca…

> The second reason is that East Asia is militarily unstable

I think you supported by argument. Why is East Asia militarily unstable?

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#38

Post by vtange »

freerobots wrote: post #27
dba7dba wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the Chinese perspective?

That the US is taking advantage of the NK situation to "ring China". I consider NK to be a serious threat to the US and her allies but I think the Chinese do not consider NK to be a serious threat to the Chinese. Imagine if Cuba decided to start allowing Chinese anti-missile defense systems at the US' doorstep because we weren't willing to deal with our ally Mexico regarding a conflict that didn't threat us.

This assumes we let Mexico develop nuclear weapons and delivery systems while threatening China and Cuba with nuclear attack... for at least a decade.

It only makes sense for threatened parties to develop defense if not retaliatory measures. Imagine if the USSR never developed nuclear weapons while the USA threatened them with nuclear attack?

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#39

Post by arrosenberg »

vtange wrote: post #38
freerobots wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the US is taking advantage of the NK situation to "ring China". I consider NK to be a serious threat to the US and her allies but I think the Chinese do not consider NK to be a serious threat to the Chinese. Imagine if Cuba decided to start allowing Chinese anti-missile defense systems at the US' doorstep because we weren't willing to deal with our ally Mexico regarding a conflict that didn't threat us.

This assumes we let Mexico develop nuclear weapons and delivery systems while threatening China and Cuba with nuclear attack... for at least a decade . It only makes sense for threatened parties to develop defense if not retaliatory measures. Imagine if the USSR never developed nuclear weapons while the USA threatened them with nuclear attack?

You don't have to imagine. Go look at the US foreign policy from 1945-1948. There were several instances where the threat was made.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#40

Post by macmacaka »

Kocrachon wrote: post #4
tomohawk wrote: post #2

China has only themselves to blame. They've let their little client state (North Korea) get out of control to the point where they have nukes and have made threats of using them. If they didn't want a nuclear arms race amongst their neighbors, they should have taken appropriate action years ago.

Yeah it's hard to feel sorry for them. They let this situation happen. This is an anti ballistic missile system, used to stop the very ballistic missiles NK is trying to launch. What did China honestly expect to happen? SK just leave itself open to attack?

NK doesn't need ballistic missiles to attack SK. Artillery itself is enough to level Seoul to the ground.
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