Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#221

Post by simonh » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:09 PM UTC

nnfy wrote: post #217

simonh wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? If it were just an assumption and no effort had been put into investigating the reasons for it and if/how those reasons can be addressed you would be right. From the article: "A new study from Microsoft sheds some light...gender stereotypes, few female role models, peer pressure and a lack of encouragement from parents and teachers largely to blame." So no assumptions are being made, this ha…

Your comment concluded with the following: > If the imbalance is due to obstacles or prejudices faced by one gender over another then would you agree that is a moral issue that is more important for society to rectify However, as per the very quote you present >A new study from Microsoft sheds some light...gender stereotypes, few female role models, peer pressure and a lack of encouragement from parents and teachers…

Why are we talking about prejudice from hostile white men in the industry? Who brought up that topic? Are you aware of studies on that? Do you have any links to them? It seems like a complete digression from the article and the thread to this point, but if you really want to discuss it I'm game. What opinion on that do you feel like arbitrarily ascribing to me?

> do you seriously mean to suggest

I didn't suggest any such thing. Where are you getting this stuff? I presented what I think is a perfectly good test as to whether unequal gender representation is an issue and an example of one example of under-representation of men I'm aware of. What is it with making up opinions for me?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#222

Post by JBlue42 » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:09 PM UTC

tashoecraft wrote: post #178

gajjanag wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rest of the STEM fields --- including mathematics --- have closer to 50/50 Citation needed for this. From a quick look from a paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1606.06196.pdf it seems like this statement is true at the undergraduate major level, but certainly not true at the doctoral level. This is particularly relevant as unlike engineering/tech, where a Bachelor's (or less) suffices for the majority of work, the s…

Anecdotal from female friends who have started down the path to PHD in stem fields, you basically have to forgo having children until you are in your 30's. The current path of ~10 years of schooling through women's 'best' biological time to have a child is, I imagine, a reason for some of the discrepancy between male and female post undergrad.

It's not even that niche though is it? A lot of the women I work with have started having kids in their mid-30s. In the US, I think overall people are marrying later and having kids later, IIRC.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#223

Post by belorn » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #96

belorn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Large part of the paradox can likely be explained by the small preferences thats derived from gender identity, and the correlation to the number of opportunities available to the individual. For example, if a person choose from two similar professions with similar pay but where one is dominated by ones own gender and the other isn't, then I predict that a above 50% will chose the one which employ a majority of ones o…

I think that's reasonable. If there is an equality of opportunity, then choices will magnify existing differences. If you have equal access to A or B, but there is some minor property of A that makes it a little more attractive to a certain demographic, over a large population sample, you should see large scale differences. Given that populations of humans will naturally self-organize themselves into groups (whether…

Not only is it unlikely to be perfect representation, but it can be quite extreme when the choices are done at a later time in life.

For example, the teacher profession is generally female dominated at 80%, but gender segregation becomes even worse when a teacher finish studying and chooses a specialization. Language teachers are above 90% female, while music is 80% male. There is no innate reason why the language of music and the language of text has this difference, but over time it just have been that more women choses languages and more men choosing music when picking a subject to teach. This trend that people has a tendency pick places (especially within a profession) where ones own gender is majority was given as one of the primary theories in a government report on the subject a few years ago here in Sweden.

I see it as the best theory available to explain the data and general trend for gender segregation.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#224

Post by DanBC » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:14 PM UTC

nnfy wrote: post #147

simonh wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balance isn't the goal. Equal opportunity is the goal. If the imbalance is due to a lack of interest in a field by one gender or another that's perhaps regrettable but not a moral issue. If the imbalance is due to obstacles or prejudices faced by one gender over another then would you agree that is a moral issue that is more important for society to rectify?

The problem is the inane assumption, which is now taken as a fact (without rigorous substantiation) that any male heavy gender ratio is a result of bias by white men (not even necessarily the majority, mind you, we simply ignore fields where women are over represented). Not to mention the conflation of equality of opportunity with equality of achievement. In our society it has become a taboo to even consider that str…

> mind you, we simply ignore fields where women are over represented).

No, we don't. This point has been asked, and answered, so often (even on HN) that it probably falls under this bit of the guidelines:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them.

EDIT there are dozens of these:

4 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5598659#5599061

3 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7538789#7539557

5 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3452516#3454185

The same trite point - "what about women in nursing? Are they oppressing men" ignores the fact that nursing is generally a low status job and that men in nursing get paid more and promoted faster than women, which is not what happens to women in tech.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#225

Post by ashark » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:16 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #207

Pharylon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because each one of us is an island, and we're not influenced by society at all as it is. I have a two year old and I can tell you fighting against pinky-princess girl culture is a battle. As a parent, it's you vs basically the rest of society that sends a million little cues about what girls are supposed to do. I had this conversation with my daughter the other morning: Daughter: I want to be a boy when I grow…

No. That is the not real problem here. The problem is a certain things have a very high barrier to entry. Getting into such things requires over the natural amounts of persistence and other myriad life skills for which you need a certain level of biological independence(like not having kids for example). These barrier to entries vary with each profession. They are higher for the cool jobs, like the CS ones. Most of t…

> They are higher for the cool jobs, like the CS ones.

Well, for the cool CS jobs, yeah, which is maybe 1% of the total. The rest aren't cool—they're brain-meltingly boring, often frustrating, health-destroyingly sedentary, and often (not always) fairly low-status, despite the pay[0]. The way-above-median pay's just about all a CS career's got going for it, for most.

[0] Compare especially the status boost granted by entering either of two full-on professions which, strikingly, kept improving gender balance through the 80s and beyond despite a long history of being dominated by men: law and medicine. Meanwhile, CS/programming started out better, then got worse around the mid 80s, as measured by graduates in relevant majors.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#226

Post by nommm-nommm » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

madengr wrote: post #36

drittich wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>STEM just does not pay over the long term. Whaa? What's your definition of pay? Anyway, IMO no prodding needed - expose the child to a wide variety of things, and then help them find and nurture their passion.

$100k - $200k long term (ages 30 - 67). STEM has initial high pay, but tops out by middle age. Late middle age, or 55+, and you are a target for elimination. My coworkers daughter and her husband are both accountants. In their mid 30's they are doing much better than any STEM majors. They will both be firm partners by 40. +200k salaries for two people over 27 years (not that they'd work to 67 anyway). I know of a mec…

I don't mean to be rude when I say this but you are very out of touch with reality and what's a good income.

$100k - $200k a year puts you, individually, over, at the very minimum, the 75th percentile income for American household.

Also, your friends aren't even close to typical accountant salary, median pay $68,150 per year - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/business-and-financial/accountants-a...

Compare that to the typical software salary, median pay $102,280 per year - https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#227

Post by paganel » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #148

paganel wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen it argued that, paradoxically, the richer and more egalitarian a society is, The former-Communist East-European country I lived in as a kid was a lot more egalitarian than most of present-day Western countries and the women were treated pretty much the same as men were when it came to work. I remember as a kid that I regarded my mother going each morning to work and returning in the evening as a very norm…

> The former-Communist East-European country I lived in as a kid was a lot more egalitarian than most of present-day Western countries That really depends on how you measure gender equality and general freedom though. > to this day I still think that a stay-at-home parent is a lazy human being You're just being too judgemental though. If a family is wanting for nothing and they agree that one parent should stay at ho…

> That really depends on how you measure gender equality and general freedom though.

Like I said, gender equality was pretty well established. "General freedom" doesn't have that much in common with equality, we can all be equal but not free. I'd say that for further reading on the matter Mona Ozouf's essays on "liberté, égalité, fraternité" is a good starting point (a related article about it in French: http://www.letelegramme.fr/bretagne/mona-ozouf-pas-simple-de...)

> You're just being too judgemental though. If a family is wanting for nothing and they agree that one parent should stay at home to spend more time looking after the family, why not?

I know this point-view might be seen as judgemental, it's just that I see people not contributing back to society with their work-time as not giving it all. It's not a matter of money, I am a little marxist inside me and I do believe that work it's one of the things that define us as a species. I've heard my ~84-year-old peasant grandma' saying that she was very upset that her legs were hurting her because she wanted to continue working.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#228

Post by omikun » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #120

ra1n85 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of this. It's not only Russia, either, which I find to be a bizarre point of focus here. I find female colleagues are far more likely to be from India, China, or Taiwan than any western nation.

>> It's not only Russia, either, which I find to be a bizarre point of focus here. I find female colleagues are far more likely to be from India, China, or Taiwan than any western nation. Where are you currently based? In the UK (and this is a BBC article) I don't see many (or any really) female tech workers from the countries you mention but lots from Russia and easter Europe.

Not the parent but I have worked for half a dozen tech companies around the US and they're mostly Indian/Chinese/White.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#229

Post by vermontdevil » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:19 PM UTC

mynegation wrote: post #57

As a Russian who got university education in Russia and worked in both Russia and Canada, I can confirm that the reasons are both cultural and economic. First, for the big part Soviet Russia did not have a sizeable percentage of stay-at-home mothers: women were _expected_ to work, childcare was absolutely free, tight living conditions made multi-generational families, when retired grand-parents took care of children,…

Wouldn't your history play a factor in this? Esp the losses of men from WW1 and WW2?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#230

Post by paganel » Fri, Apr 21, 2017, 2:20 PM UTC

camelNotation wrote: post #210

paganel wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen it argued that, paradoxically, the richer and more egalitarian a society is, The former-Communist East-European country I lived in as a kid was a lot more egalitarian than most of present-day Western countries and the women were treated pretty much the same as men were when it came to work. I remember as a kid that I regarded my mother going each morning to work and returning in the evening as a very norm…

>to this day I still think that a stay-at-home parent is a lazy human being I'm not sure why it's lazy to avoid work if it doesn't negatively affect your health or well-being. I can't say what the objective meaning of life is (or if one even exists for certain) but I can say with a fair amount of certainty that it isn't to "grow up, work for decades, and die." Nothing gold can stay.

> but I can say with a fair amount of certainty that it isn't to "grow up, work for decades, and die."

I've also said it in a previous comment, but my ~84-or-so peasant grandma' did just that, i.e. she worked all of her life ever since she got married at 17, never took a "vacation" day off. I've heard her saying that she was really upset that her legs were hurting her, because she really wanted to continue working as she had done before. I'm pretty sure that, if given the chance, my gradnma' would choose the same lifestyle as she had. For some of us work is indeed fulfilling.